IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS

FOR THE STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA

COLLETON COUNTY

DEPOSITION OF RALPH GORDON STAIR

GLENDON ALLABY, KATHRYN ALLABY, CORA PFUND, ERIC

PFUND, GREG LINDSEY, LARRY HARTLEY, MICHAEL DUVAL,

KATHLEEN DUVAL, PEARL BUTLER, TIMOTHY BUTLER and

KEVIN NEVIN,

Plaintiffs,

vs. CASE NO. 04-CP-15-382

R.G. STAIR and FAITH CATHEDRAL FELLOWSHIP, INC.,

a/k/a OVERCOMER MINISTRIES,

Defendants.

____________________________________________________

DEPONENT: RALPH GORDON STAIR

DATE: December 4, 2006

TIME: 9:00 a.m.

LOCATION: PETERS MURDAUGH PARKER ELTZROTH &

DETRICK, PA

123 Walter Street

Walterboro, SC 29488

REPORTED BY: NANCY ENNIS TIERNEY, CSR (IL)

CLARK & ASSOCIATES

P.O. Box 73129

North Charleston, SC 29415

(843) 762-6294

A P P E A R A N C E S

FOR THE PLAINTIFFS:

PETERS, MURDAUGH, PARKER, ELTZROTH

& DETRICK, P.A. SMITH

BY: BERT GLENN UTSEY, III

123 Walter Street

Walterboro, SC 29488

(843) 549-9544

FOR THE DEFENDANTS:

LAW OFFICES OF MATHIAS G. CHAPLIN, P.A.

BY: MATHIAS G. CHAPLIN

206 E. Washington Street

Walterboro, SC 29488

(843) 549-9330

I N D E X

Page

Witness Sworn 4

EXAMINATION

By Mr. Utsey 4

By Mr. Chaplin 225

By Mr. Utsey 229

Certificate of Reporter 250

Deponent Correction Sheet 251

E X H I B I T S

Page

Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 1 77

Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 2 106

Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 3 117

Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 4 163

Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 5 189

Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 6 200

Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 7 204

Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 8 214

RALPH GORDON STAIR, having first

duly affirmed, testified as hereinafter set forth.

EXAMINATION

BY MR. UTSEY:

Q. Can you give me your full name, please?

A. Ralph Gordon Stair.

Q. Mr. Stair, we are going to take your

deposition here today. Have you ever provided a

deposition before in any other cases?

A. Yes.

Q. On how many occasions?

A. One time.

Q. Do you generally understand how this

process works?

A. Very well.

Q. I am going to go over a few points that

I normally cover with folks before we begin. You

may know some or all of this, but I think it's

helpful sometimes to tell people what to expect

and how this process works. It makes it go a

little more smoothly and quickly, hopefully.

I am going to ask you some questions,

and you are going to give me answers to the best

of your knowledge and to the best of your

ability. And, of course, your answers need to be

truthful, as you affirmed you would do.

The purpose here is for me to

investigate, or what we lawyers call discover,

different parts of this case.

Under our laws, I can't talk to you

except for two occasions, one is here in the

deposition with your attorney present and the

other is if we go to trial and you are on the

witness stand.

So it's important for me to take this

time to understand the knowledge you have about

these cases and to investigate the case from that

perspective.

A. All right.

Q. I explain that to you now so that you

will understand I'm not taking your deposition for

any other purpose, and particularly not for any

improper type purpose. I am not just here out of

curiosity to delve into your private life, for

example.

I'm not here to try to ask what I would

characterize as trick questions or try to get you

to say something that is not accurate. It doesn't

do me any good and it doesn't do you any good.

It's simply an investigation tool.

And I also give that introduction so

that you will know that if I ask you a question

that you find to be confusing, or one that you

would rather me rephrase or repeat before you

answer it, please let me know and I will be happy

to do that.

Because it's not my intention to try and

confuse you with questions, but I know that we

lawyers sometimes will talk too much and make what

could otherwise be a simple question more

complicated than it needs to be.

A couple of ground rules that will help

with ensuring that your testimony is recorded

accurately and transcribed accurately when our

court reporter prepares the transcript.

It's difficult for her to type two

people speaking at the same time, and so it will

be important for me to wait until you finish your

answer before I ask you a question and for you to

wait for me to finish asking a question before you

begin answering it.

Now, in my experience I will probably

ask you a question before you are finished

answering, and you will probably answer a question

before I'm finished asking.

If that happens, you stop me or I will

stop you. I want you to understand it's not

because I'm being rude if I do that. It's because

I want to make sure that everything is accurate on

the record.

Fair enough?

A. Sure.

Q. Another thing is if you and I were just

talking on the street, we might have a

conversation where one of us shakes or nods our

head or says uh-huh or huh-huh, or something like

that, that might not be entirely clear if it were

transcribed.

So in response to a question, if your

answer is yes or no, you need to say yes or no

rather than shaking your head. And if you forget

to do that, I might remind you. Again, it's not

because I'm trying to be rude. It's just because

I want to make sure that your testimony is

accurate for the record.

A. Sure. Yes.

Q. If you need to take a break at any time

during the deposition, let me know, a rest room

break, coffee break, whatever, and I will be happy

to accommodate you.

I will tell you that under our rules, if

you have any conversations with anyone during a

break, including with your attorney, that when we

resume I'm entitled to ask you about the

conversations, even if those conversations might

otherwise be attorney-client privileged.

Under our rules, once a deposition

starts, then the witness is sort of on his own as

far as what he's going to say and testify and

can't get assistance from his attorney unless it's

with respect to a question of whether to claim

attorney-client privilege to a particular

question.

Do you feel like you understand that?

A. Oh, yes.

Q. If you have any questions about the

deposition itself, or about the process that we

are using here, I will need for you to address

those questions to me and I will do my best to

answer those before we go on.

Fair enough?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. Any other questions that you have before

we get started?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Are you feeling well enough to give your

deposition today?

A. Oh, yes.

Q. Are you taking any medication or under

the influence of anything that would affect your

ability to hear, understand and respond truthfully

to my questions here today?

A. No.

Q. Let me get some background information

on you.

What is your date of birth?

A. 3rd of May, '33.

Q. Have you ever gone by any other names?

A. No. Brother Stair.

Q. Okay. Well, I understand, yeah, title.

A. No.

Q. Are you married?

A. Yes.

Q. And your wife's name?

A. Teresa Grace.

Q. Is Grace her maiden name or is that a

middle name?

A. That's her middle name. Her maiden name

is Erconolino.

Q. Can you spell that? I'm putting you on

the spot, I know.

A. I'm sorry. I don't know if I can do

that or not. E-c -- Erco -- E-r-c-o-n-o-l-i-n-o,

somewhere like that.

MR. CHAPLIN: You can clarify it later

today.

Q. How long have you-all been married?

A. I think about 25 years. I'm not sure of

the exact date.

Q. Is that your only marriage?

A. No.

Q. Who was your previous marriage to?

A. Jeraldine -- let's see. What is her

name? It's been so long. I remember her middle

name.

Q. That's okay. What was her maiden name?

A. Hilbert, H-i-l-b-e-r-t.

MR. CHAPLIN: I apologize. I am going

to ask you just to give me one second here and put

this fire out because it's involving a judge, and

then I won't have to bother you anymore. It will

just take two minutes.

MR. UTSEY: Sure.

(A recess was taken.)

Q. Before we took a break you were telling

me about the fact that you were previously married

to Jeraldine Hilbert?

A. Yes.

Q. And that marriage ended how? Did she

pass away or did you-all get divorced or what?

A. No. She just divorced me.

Q. And approximately when was that?

A. Well, like I say, about 25, 30 years

ago, something like that.

Q. Oh, okay. And in what state was that?

A. That was in Georgia.

Q. Do you remember what county?

A. No.

Q. And what were the grounds for divorce?

A. There wasn't any. She just divorced.

Q. It wasn't as if anybody accused anybody

of any wrongdoing or anything?

A. No.

Q. Fair enough. Are those your only two

marriages, or did you have any marriages before

that?

A. That's it.

Q. Any children?

A. Yeah. I have five from the first wife

and one from the second.

Q. Let me get their names and ages, please.

A. Oh, man. You are asking me questions

that I don't know if I can give you the answers

to.

Q. I thought these were the layups.

A. Well, I don't know how old each one of

them are.

Q. Give me -- I assume they are all over

the age of 18 if you had been married to her 25 --

A. Definitely. All of my children from her

are -- the oldest is probably at least 50s and

then down to 40s. Probably the youngest one is

somewhere, I would say, in his 30s.

And then I have a young daughter with my

second wife, and she is 20.

Q. What is her name?

A. Naomi. Her last name is Bowles,

B-o-w-l-e-s. She is married now.

Q. Where does she live?

A. Up near Columbia.

Q. Do any of your children live in Colleton

County?

A. No.

Q. Other than your wife, do you have any

other relatives who reside in Colleton County?

A. No.

Q. How about any relatives through your

wife's side of her family?

A. No.

Q. Where is your wife from originally?

A. New Jersey.

Q. How long have you been in the Colleton

County area?

A. At least 25, 30 years. Almost 30 years

I would say, 25 for sure.

Q. Before that where were you?

A. I lived in Savannah for awhile, and I

pastored a church in New York and one in Boston.

Q. Where are you from originally?

A. Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.

Q. When did you leave that area?

A. Oh, many years ago. I would say at

least 40 years ago, maybe longer than that.

Q. So the states you have lived in include

Pennsylvania, South Carolina, New York, Georgia?

A. I lived in Georgia. I lived in Alabama

for a long time years ago when I first started to

pastor.

Q. Any others?

A. Where I lived?

Q. Yes, sir.

A. I lived in California for awhile.

Q. Anywhere else?

A. Of course, you know, for many years I

was a traveling evangelist so I was in a lot of

states, and I would sometimes stay in those states

for who knows how long, as far as living. I can't

say I lived in most of them, no.

Q. I guess I'm looking more for your

residence rather than --

A. I would say Georgia, Alabama, New York

and California would be the states I lived in.

Q. And then when you were doing this

out-of-town evangelism, how long would you stay if

you said you had a protracted stay?

A. Sometimes months and sometimes weeks.

Q. Now, the case here is pending in

Colleton County, and one of the things that the

lawyers for both sides will do is to try and make

sure that we have a jury that doesn't have any

connections to either the plaintiffs or the

defendants in the case.

That is why I asked you about your

relatives that may be in the county. But also,

obviously, I would also like to understand who are

members of your congregation or your ministry?

A. We don't have any membership.

Q. Do you have folks that associate

themselves with -- am I using the term correctly

to say congregation, or do you call it fellowship

or --

A. We have people who come to our meetings,

yes, but they are not members. They just attend

our services, and that could be some from here,

some from locally. People drive in from various

areas.

Q. Do you have folks who live on the

grounds?

A. Sure.

Q. Are there any lists of such people that

can be produced?

A. Oh, yes.

Q. So is it fair to say that if we were

preparing to try this case, if we get to that

point, I could get a list from Mr. Chaplin just to

make sure I could compare that against the

prospective jury list?

A. Correct.

Q. All right. What would I call that list

if I was to ask for it?

A. I guess the residents of the Overcomer

community. Of course, they don't all live with

me. There are other people in the area.

Q. Who attend services?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you maintain a list of donors? Say

someone doesn't live on the community but they

donate money?

A. Yes. We have people who donate money.

We have a list of every one of them, sure, but I

don't know if I could give you that list.

MR. CHAPLIN: I think we provided

something in discovery already with regards to all

of the different plaintiffs.

MR. UTSEY: Right, but I'm looking more

in terms of selecting a jury.

MR. CHAPLIN: Selecting a jury. Okay.

A. You are talking about somebody in the

area that could be potential jurors?

MR. CHAPLIN: Somebody that might have

donated money so that he could actually --

Q. Yeah. Hypothetically, I guess a jury

list has 150 names on it. If one person buried in

that 150 names is someone who regularly attends

and donates --

A. That wouldn't be a problem.

Q. -- I want to know that.

MR. CHAPLIN: On voir dire, wouldn't

they have to answer that, though, if they ever

donated?

MR. UTSEY: In my experience, not

everybody answers those questions accurately. And

that's not always intentional. I mean, I think

sometimes they get confused or don't know what

they should answer. But there is always some --

A. If I understand your question correctly,

you are wanting to know anybody in this general

area that could be a potential juror?

Q. Who has a relationship with you.

A. Right. That isn't no problem.

Q. Okay. If you-all want to do the same

thing with the people that might have a

relationship with my clients, we will give you

that, too.

A. Sure.

Q. Easy enough. Let me get some more

background information on you, Mr. Stair. How far

did you go in terms of formal education?

A. I went to 10th grade.

Q. Where was that?

A. In Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.

Q. What school is that?

A. Bethlehem High School. That is the last

one I attended.

Q. Did you get a GED after that or any

other formal education?

A. No. I took Bible study courses and

things like that from various religious

organizations, but I never --

Q. Did you ever serve in the military?

A. No.

Q. Tell me about your religious training,

your Bible study courses or however you want to

characterize it.

A. Well, you just took Bible study courses

that they had, theological, doctrines and things

like that. That is what they were.

Q. Are these formal courses of study?

A. Yes. Sure.

Q. And when you finish those do you get

some sort of certificate of completion or degree?

A. They would just give you a little

certificate of completion.

Q. Give me some idea of what those

involved, or which one of those you have done.

A. Well, I took a course with the Free

Methodist Church. That is back when I was 17, 18

years of age. I have never had any theological

biblical school things.

I started preaching when I was 16, and

my preaching, my manner of life, was under the

auspices of different churches where you would run

this -- they would call you an exhorter, or

something like that, and you would practice your

ministry.

And they would then approve of you,

whether you were a pastor or not. I joined maybe

four or five churches over the years, but most of

the time I just preached.

Q. I don't have a lot of experience with

the structure or lack of structure that is

associated with that, so some of my questions may

sound like they are uninformed, and that is

because they are, so help me in understanding

this.

First of all, in terms of certificates

of completion --

A. I don't have any.

Q. You don't have any of those?

A. No.

Q. You said that some churches have

recognized you as a pastor or --

A. Well, you would start out -- when I

first started out, I started out in what they

called at that time was the Holiness Christian

Church, and then I went to the Free Methodist

Church, and each one of these churches would have

steps of degree of preaching.

First they would give you what they call

an exhorter's license, and then you would operate

under that for a year or two. And then if you met

their qualifications they would advance you to

another license. And eventually you would get

ordained. That was a lot of different

organizations that I worked in because I was a

traveling evangelist, and I would work with a lot

of them.

Q. Were you ordained in any of those

churches?

A. No.

Q. What would have been the highest level

that you attained within --

A. A licensed preacher, a licensed pastor

or licensed evangelist.

Q. When I hear the term license, that

suggests --

A. They would give you a license that they

recognized as a pastor or an evangelist in their

group.

Q. A license being issued by that group?

A. Right.

Q. As opposed to some sort of state agency

or something like that?

A. Right.

Q. Have any of those licenses -- or any of

your licenses with any of those churches ever been

revoked or rescinded?

A. No.

Q. With which different churches have you

been associated where you have been --

A. The only one I can think about that

would --

MR. CHAPLIN: Let him finish the

question.

Q. I think you understand where I'm going.

I am just trying to find out in which churches

have you been acknowledged to have attained some

level as a pastor or a minister?

A. The only two that I can -- or three of

them. There is three of them. One was the Free

Methodist Church. That is very many years ago.

Then another group, which it's a very small group,

called the German Eldership Church of God, and

that was a small group in Pennsylvania. And then

for several years I was licensed with the Assembly

of God.

The others are -- in the course of time,

you know, we became an official organized church

ourself with federal recognition. So we have

ability to ordain our own preachers or license our

own preachers.

Q. You are talking about current church?

A. Yes, which has been in existence for 25

years at least, or maybe 30.

Q. Well, I am going to talk about that, but

I just want to make sure I have covered all of the

territory in between when you began preaching and

up until the point which you formed Overcomer

Ministries.

Have we done that?

A. Yes, pretty well. I mean, like I say,

up until I came here and organized this church

group here, we started in New York and then moved

out of New York, came here and transferred here,

and we organized it here, and we got the federal

recognition and we got the organizational

structure.

And from that point on -- but prior to

that I was just mostly a traveling evangelist. I

did pastor a few churches. I pastored one in

Alabama. That is another one. That one I was

licensed by. I pastored there for five years.

Q. What was that called?

A. That was called the Full Gospel Church

of God.

Q. Okay. Now, how long was it that you

were doing the traveling evangelism?

A. I would say I traveled even after I came

here. I stopped the traveling about four or five

years ago when I was pretty well tied up here with

the work I was doing here. But even when I came

here I would travel almost every month somewhere

preaching.

Q. Was there a period before you began the

Overcomer Ministries that you were a traveling

evangelist, as you described it earlier, where you

made -

A. I would do both. I would pastor

churches and travel at the same time. I had a

church for many years in Savannah, Savannah,

Georgia, and then I would travel. But I would

have revivals, too. So I was always either

pastoring or in the course of having meetings.

Q. And when you were traveling and having

these revival meetings, was that under the

auspices of the church with which you were

affiliated at the time?

A. Yes.

Q. Not independent of that church?

A. No. The church -- for instance, the

church we had in Savannah, it was affiliated with

Full Gospel Churches and Ministries International,

which was an independent group of churches, and

that is where we had our affiliation then.

Q. And when you would travel, was it like

the old-time tent revivals?

A. Tent revivals, church revivals, street

meetings, jail services.

Q. And let's talk -- if I call it Overcomer

Ministries, is that the easiest way to describe

it?

A. Sure.

Q. The full official name of Overcomer

Ministries, though, is what?

A. Faith Cathedral Fellowship.

Q. How long has it been named Faith

Cathedral?

A. Oh, at least 25 years.

Q. It has always had the same name?

A. Yes.

Q. As I understand it, that is a

corporation and that is the official name of the

ministry?

A. Yes.

Q. But Overcomer Ministries is the

day-to-day name that most people refer to it as,

that you refer to it as?

A. Well, that is the way we refer to it,

yes, because that is the outreach of Faith

Cathedral Fellowship.

Q. When was Faith Cathedral Fellowship

incorporated?

A. I don't have the exact date. Like I

say, it's been 25 years. Paul Siegel did it. He

did it for us and did a good job.

Q. So it would have been -- you mentioned

something about being in New York and then moving

here, but it would have been after you were inside

Carolina that you had it --

A. No. I had a church in New York and

Boston, and I also had a church at that time in

Savannah. I was pastoring those three churches

and I would come back and forth.

And then I felt impressed to buy some

land, and so I came here and I bought some land

and then I moved here. When I moved here, then we

moved our -- we had already started to file for a

church organization in New York. We just about

had it done.

But then when we came here, we just

transferred it down here instead of up there. We

did it here. And that is when Faith Cathedral

became an official federally-recognized authorized

church.

Q. There are several steps, and that is

what I'm trying to break down. The first would

have been getting a state to grant a charter of

incorporation?

A. Right.

Q. That would have been in the state of

South Carolina?

A. Yes.

Q. And we should be able to determine that

from the Secretary of State?

A. I can go get it. I have it at home.

Q. Because you weren't sure on the date, is

why I asked.

A. No. I would have to go look at the

date.

Q. But you said Paul Siegel did the

incorporation?

A. Yes.

Q. Did he also assist you with any other

legal aspects of forming --

A. He then got us -- he set up the

incorporation, the board, and the bylaws and

everything that is required to be recognized by

the state, and then he filed and got us the

federal recognition.

Q. The 501(c)3?

A. Right.

Q. Where was Paul working at that time; do

you remember? Was he in a law firm?

A. Across the street, wasn't he?

Q. Was that with Smoak and Moody and --

A. Yes.

Q. So has Faith Cathedral Fellowship

enjoyed 501(c)3 status continuously since that

time?

A. Yes.

Q. So that would be approximately, again,

25 years?

A. 25 years, yes. I would have to get the

exact date.

Q. What was involved in attaining that

status?

A. Nothing particularly that I know of,

just applying for it and getting it.

Q. Do you remember what the application

process involved?

A. No.

Q. Are there ongoing reporting requirements

associated with that status?

A. No.

Q. In other words, do you have to make

filings on an annual basis, for example?

A. Not on that one. We are not a nonprofit

organization per se. We are a religious

organization, and religious organizations do not

have to file reports.

Q. So other than attaining that 501(c)3

status approximately 25 years ago, have you had

any communications with the Internal Revenue

Service concerning that status since then?

A. No, because we have met the

requirements. We still do.

Q. That is what I'm wondering, whether they

monitor that to make sure that you are still doing

what you began doing and that kind of thing. Do

they?

A. Well, if you go outside of it -- there

is three things they require you to do. They

require you to have church services, they require

you to be benevolent, and they require you to have

an education process, and we do all three of

those..

Q. I am just curious whether you hear from

them periodically to make sure you are still doing

those things?

A. One time they checked us out, and then

they found out that we were still doing it and --

Q. And they left you alone?

A. Sure.

Q. When was that?

A. 1988.

Q. And who contacted you at that point?

A. They just informed us that our status

was in question. And they contacted Paul, and

Paul went back and whatever they had to do and had

it validated.

Q. Were those IRS agents that contacted

you?

A. They didn't contact me. They informed

me that we were under -- they inquired about our

status, and I took it to Paul, and Paul followed

through on our status and they reinstated us.

Well, they didn't reinstate us. They didn't take

it away from us.

Q. I'm just trying to determine who made

the contact.

A. It was the IRS and it was the state

officials.

Q. State of South Carolina also made that

inquiry?

A. As far as I know. It didn't last very

long.

Q. But I'm curious whether you know if it

was out of the Charleston office or the Columbia

office or --

A. I have no idea.

Q. Now, do you have a similar status with

respect to the State Department of Revenue?

A. We have nothing to do with the State

Department of Revenue. We don't have to do

anything with them at all.

Q. Is that because they have given you a

status like a 501(c)3 status, or do they

acknowledge the federal, or how does that work?

A. They just don't require anything. There

is no reporting or anything because we are a

church organization and we operate as a church

organization.

Q. Since you have created -- or since you

created Faith Cathedral Fellowship approximately

25 years ago, have you operated any other

churches?

No.

Q. Have you operated any other businesses?

A. No.

Q. Have you had any other source of income

personally since then other than through --

A. No.

Q. -- the Faith Cathedral Fellowship?

A. No. I haven't taken any income from

Faith Cathedral Fellowship, if you are talking

about personally. Are you talking about me

personally?

Q. Yes, sir.

A. No. I haven't had any income at all,

and that has been checked by the IRS themselves.

They came out here and asked me about that,

checked me out.

Q. When was that?

A. 1988.

MR. CHAPLIN: Skip, can you give me a

second? I need to confer with my client just one

minute, if you don't mind.

MR. UTSEY: Well, I have already told

him that under the rules if you-all confer I can

question him about your conference.

MR. CHAPLIN: Okay. That's fine. Can I

just say something to him in front of you?

MR. UTSEY: Yes.

MR. CHAPLIN: Please listen to the form

of the question and just answer the question.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

Q. Was that the same time that the IRS

contacted Paul or you about the status of Faith

Cathedral Fellowship that they also contacted you

about your personal income?

A. It was in the general same time, yes.

Q. And was that the Federal IRS?

A. Yes.

Q. Did it also involve the State Department

of Revenue?

A. No.

Q. And did Paul deal with that issue as

well?

A. All I know is they came to see me.

Q. Oh, okay. You actually got an in-person

visit?

A. Yes.

Q. And who was it?

A. They sent two agents out, two IRS

agents, and they asked me a simple question.

Q. What was that?

A. How come you don't pay no income tax.

Q. And did that resolve the issue?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that the only time that they made any

such inquiry of you?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have an accountant for the

fellowship?

A. Just my wife. She is our accountant.

Q. Is she actually an accountant or a

bookkeeper or what?

A. She is very good at it.

Q. Well, does she have any formal training,

I guess is what I'm --

A. No.

Q. How long has she been in that position

of accountant or bookkeeper?

A. Ever since we were married.

Q. So the entire life of Faith Cathedral

Fellowship, has she been the person that has

handled that end of it?

A. Yes.

Q. Does she have an official title with

Faith Cathedral Fellowship?

A. No. She is a vice president of the

corporation.

Q. That is kind of what I'm driving at.

Who is the treasurer of the corporation?

A. I would say she is the treasurer, yes.

Q. Has there ever been anyone else who has

handled the books of Faith Cathedral Fellowship

other than Teresa?

A. No.

Q. Have the books ever been subject to any

sort of external audit by an accounting firm or

otherwise?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever used a CPA firm or any

other outside accountant with respect to Faith

Cathedral Fellowship?

A. No.

Q. Help me with the understanding of the

officers, the current officers and directors of

Faith Cathedral Fellowship. Are you the

president?

A. I am the president, and the vice

president, and we have a chairman of the board and

we have -- I forget how many board members there

are, seven or eight.

Q. Let's talk about the officers first.

You said you are the president and you believe

Teresa is the vice president?

A. Yes.

Q. And also the treasurer?

A. Yes.

Q. Does the corporation have a secretary,

to your knowledge?

A. Yes.

Q. Who is that?

Margaret Moratto.

Margaret Maratto passed away a couple of weeks ago

Q. I saw her name in some of the answers to

interrogatories and whatnot, but I wasn't clear on

whether she was a secretary in the sense that she

was an employee who did secretarial functions or

whether she was a corporate officer secretary?

A. She is just a corporate officer. We

don't have any employees.

Q. And what are her job -- or what are her

responsibilities, rather, as a corporate

secretary?

A. She just stays in the office. She

answers the phones. She helps with the mail. She

takes the minutes in special meetings that we

have, like secretaries do.

Q. Does she maintain official corporate

records such as minutes of annual meetings,

resolutions, that sort of thing?

A. Yes.

Q. How long has Margaret Moratto been in

the position of secretary?

A. 20 years, at least.

Q. And since she became secretary, has

anyone else functioned in that office?

A. No.

Q. Have you always been the president of

the corporation?

A. Yes.

Q. And has Teresa always been the vice

president?

A. Yes.

Q. Are there any other corporate officers

aside from -- we will talk about the board of

directors in a minute.

A. Just the board.

Q. Let's talk about the board of directors.

Who is the chairman of the board?

A. Chris Gingrich.

Q. Can you spell his last name?

A. G-r-i-n-r-i-c-k (sic).

MR. CHAPLIN: Say it one more time.

THE WITNESS: Chris Gingrich,

G-r-i-n-r-i-c-k (sic).

Q. I have seen the name Brother

Christopher. Is that the same person?

A. No.

Q. How long has Chris Gingrich been the

chairman of the board?

A. Ever since we started.

Q. And he resides where?

He resides over in Bamberg County.

Q. Who are the other members of the board?

A. Dave Moratto, Timothy Jones, Rick Bell.

I have to think for a minute. That is four.

Christopher is not on that, right?

Q. Are you a member?

A. Yeah. I'm a member, and my wife is a

member, and the secretary is a member.

Q. Margaret?

A. Yes.

MR. CHAPLIN: Moratto.

Q. Is Dave Moratto Margaret's husband?

A. Yes.

Q. That is seven. Is that everybody?

A. I can't think of any more right now.

Q. Is there anyone who has ever been a

member of the board who is no longer a member of

the board?

A. Not that I know of, no.

Q. Have all of the current members of the

board always been members of the board since --

A. Yes, yes.

Q. -- the fellowship was founded?

A. Well, no. Some of them came -- when we

first started we didn't have a full board. And

then as time went on we got the board membership.

Under the original charter it was just me and my

wife, but then we got the board later on as we

grew.

Q. I understand. What is the function of

the board of directors?

A. We report to them on what we are doing,

why we are doing it, and what our purpose of the

ministry is all about.

Q. And other than receiving these reports,

does the board of directors do anything with

respect to the Faith Cathedral Fellowship?

A. Whatever needs to be done.

Q. Give me an example.

A. Well, right now I don't know what answer

you are looking for because the board, they can

discipline me, which they did. They have

disciplined me in the past, or they question me.

I have to give an account of what I'm doing. They

know how we operate and what our functions are.

Q. Help me understand the structure of

Faith Cathedral Fellowship. I mean, I understand

that you have the officers that we have just

discussed and the board of directors.

And, again, this is a question of total

ignorance as far as how this church is organized.

I can have a preconceived notion because of the

church I have always attended is set up one way

and yours is probably different, so I don't know

how to compare them.

Are there employees at all?

A. No.

Q. No employees. Is there a church

discipline, or is there some structure within the

church as far as who is the head of the church?

A. We have the bylaws, the church bylaws

that have been incorporated, and we function by

the bylaws.

Q. Are those the corporate bylaws or are

they different?

A. Corporate bylaws.

Q. Other than that, is there any sort of

text which deals with how the church is organized

and operated?

A. Only according to the Bible. We use the

scriptures through our discipline.

Q. So the head of the church under your

bylaws is whom? And I'm not talking about God. I

am just saying the head of it.

A. I am the president of the corporation.

Q. And how does that translate into terms

of your role as minister or pastor, if at all?

A. I just pastor, preach.

MR. CHAPLIN: Do you understand the

question?

THE WITNESS: Not quite, no. I mean, I

am the head of the organization.

MR. CHAPLIN: Let him rephrase it.

Q. I understand the corporate organization

and your role as president, but I also

understand -- and we haven't really talked about

it -- but I also understand that you preach?

A. Well, in the religious source you have

spiritual leaders, too. You have men who are

elders in the church.

Q. Well, that is the structure that I'm --

A. Well, most of those men are elders just

like they are the board of directors. They are

our leaders of the church. They are what we call

the governing body.

Of course, that is in the spiritual

realm. We recognize them as what they are, and we

use their advice and we call them in for judgments

and decisions.

Q. Is that the same as the board of

directors, or are there different people that

comprise the --

A. Well, some are the board of directors.

There are others who are not. Like Christopher,

who you are going to see this afternoon, he's not

on the board of directors, but he is definitely

one of our elders.

Q. Okay. Well, that is what I am trying to

drive at.

A. We have -- all the men on the board are

what we call also spiritual leaders, and they help

make the judgments that need to be done in the

church.

Q. The spiritual leaders, is that the same

as elders?

A. Elders are deacons. Most churches have

elders or deacons. But we don't give those

offices, but we just recognize them as men who are

spiritual in that position.

Q. So if I use the term spiritual leaders,

that would be that category of people -- I want to

use the right term. You used the term elders, and

I didn't know if you were just using it in the

colloquial sense or whether it's specific to your

fellowship.

A. First of all, we don't have a membership

type of anything, so our men are recognized among

us by virtue of being there. These are men that

have been around who put their life into it, for

instance Chris Gingrich, for 30 years.

Q. Are they elected to these positions?

A. No. We don't elect them.

Q. How does someone become a spiritual

leader?

A. By recognition, by being faithful. You

just abide by the --

Q. Who are the spiritual leaders?

A. I mentioned them to you. Most of them

are the board of directors.

Q. But are there others? You said, for

instance --

A. I just mentioned also Christopher

Landry. He's a spiritual leader.

Q. That is Brother Christopher?

A. Yes.

Q. What is his last name?

A. Landry.

Q. Anyone else?

MR. CHAPLIN: Excuse me. Can you find a

breaking point? I want to try to call Judge James

Mack at some point.

MR. UTSEY: Sure. Let me just get this

list.

Q. Is there anyone else who is among this

group of spiritual leaders whose names we haven't

already discussed as the board of directors?

A. Yes.

Q. Who else?

A. Joe Klein would be one of them. Of

course we have Pastor Timothy already. How many

do I have up there? Jonathan Keiser would be one

of them. Al, I don't know his last name.

MR. CHAPLIN: Do the best you can.

A. Dennis Larivee would be one of them.

Q. Can you spell his last name?

A. L-a-r-v-i-e (sic).

Q. Are there others?

A. We have a community up here with about

70 some people, 70 some. Let me see. And we

honor each other as brothers and give each other

credibility as they live among us. I guess you

could call them all spiritual leaders if you

wanted to.

Q. Right. I am not calling anybody

anything. You used the term spiritual leaders, so

I was trying to make sure I understood who you

were talking about.

A. We don't operate in a realm of picking

out somebody and saying -- if you are a man and he

works and he's faithful and he's a brother, we

respect his opinion, we respect his judgment, and

we respect his -- they have all put their life

into this, just like I put mine into it, and they

all have an accountability to each other.

MR. UTSEY: We will take a break so you

can make your call.

MR. CHAPLIN: Thank you.

(A recess was taken.)

Q. Again, this is probably me trying to put

a square peg in a round hole, so to speak, because

I'm trying to understand the structure of your

church, using as a backdrop my understanding of

how the churches I have been affiliated with are

structured, but it may not be a good comparison.

Does your church have one or more

pastors or ministers or priests, or whatever title

they are supplied?

A. Yeah. We have at least three pastors,

and we have men who operate -- I don't know how

you would call it.

Q. What do you call them?

A. They get up and preach. Well, one is an

evangelist, two are pastors, one is a teacher.

And I'm more recognized as the prophet, which most

of your churches won't recognize.

Q. Right.

A. But we recognize the prophet ministry.

We have teachers. We have pastors who operate --

and that's in the spiritual sense. That comes

form a spiritual extent. That is not something

you go to school and learn. It's a spiritual gift

that God gives people, which is mentioned in the

Bible, pastors, evangelists, teachers and

governments, and even some who minister with the

Ministry of Health.

Q. Help me with names for each of those

people. You are the prophet, is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And there are pastors?

A. Pastor Timothy Jones is one. I would

say that Al -- I can't think of Al's last name.

MR. CHAPLIN: We can get it to him. Go

ahead.

A. Dave Moratto is an evangelist. Jonathan

Keiser is a teacher. And then we have many other

men who preach. I don't know. I mean, I can't

give you a whole list of all the men who preach.

I mean, many that come in and preach are from

outside, inside.

Q. I got you.

A. In fact, one of those fellows right

there used to preach.

Q. What fellow right where?

A. Tim Butler.

Q. Oh, one of the plaintiffs?

A. Yes.

Q. Are any of these official titles that

are documented somewhere in church documents?

A. No.

Q. It's just the way things are developed

and people go into where their talents lead them?

A. Right.

Q. Now, does Faith Cathedral Fellowship

have meetings, formal meetings other than worship

services?

A. What kind of meetings are you talking

about?

Q. Church business meetings, for example.

A. If we need them, we call them.

Q. And when you have those type meetings,

who attends?

A. Anybody that wants to that belongs to --

that lives on the grounds.

Q. Are there documents generated --

A. We haven't had any yet.

Q. Oh, you haven't?

A. No. We don't have to have them because

there is no need for them.

Q. Why not?

A. Because we just have services. We

don't -- business is taken care of with the board

if we have it and that's it.

Q. That is what I was trying to understand.

So the board is really the business -- I know you

are not operating as a traditional business, so

I'm not trying to add some connotation to this

that is not there. But the business end of things

is the board? Is that fair to say?

A. They understand and know what is going

on, yes.

Q. Now, you mentioned --

A. Of course, we are very open, I can tell

you that. Everything that goes on up there

everybody knows.

Q. You mentioned that the board has a

disciplinary function and that it has disciplined

you in the past. Explain that to me.

A. Yeah. A few years ago I committed

adultery and they disciplined me, and I'm still

under discipline. I'm not allowed to go anywhere

by myself. And, of course, you know about that.

Q. Well, you may be assuming more than is

there.

A. No. You know about the case.

Q. Now, tell me about that. You said a few

years ago. When was this?

A. Four years ago, about four years.

Q. About four years ago. Is this the only

time that the board has disciplined you?

A. Yes.

Q. What was the nature of the discipline

other than you can't go anywhere alone?

A. Well, I wasn't supposed to -- I had to

be more careful about how I dealt with each

individual, you know, to be careful about my life.

That was all.

Q. Now, how was this disciplinary decision

reached? Was it at a formal board meeting or

what?

A. Sure. We had a church meeting and then

we had a board meeting.

They did not have a board meeting

Q. What is a church meeting?

A. Well, when that came down, we called

everybody together and --

MR. CHAPLIN: Excuse me one second.

Skip, in light of the fact that the matter that we

are talking about is on a 40J status, I am going

to object to this line of questioning. I think

that this has been put on hold until the case is

restored.

MR. UTSEY: I think it's -- it's still

discoverable.

MR. CHAPLIN: Okay. If you want to go

forward with it, that's fine. I just wanted to

put that objection on the table because I think

that the focus of the cases that are -- for the

purpose of the depo today, none of them have to do

with where you are at right now.

MR. UTSEY: I understand that, but I

think under the rules of discovery, unless it's

privileged, I have a right to ask him about it.

MR. CHAPLIN: And I think that the 40J

matter suggests that that is off the docket and

probably not the purpose of today's meeting.

MR. UTSEY: Your objection is on the

record.

MR. CHAPLIN: Good.

Q. There was a church meeting, you said,

with respect to this issue?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that held?

A. Sir, I don't have those dates in my

mind.

Q. Approximately when was it?

A. It was about four years ago.

Q. And when you say a church meeting, you

mean what? Who attended?

A. Every person on the land at that time

attended except the children. And what took place

was I made the confession of what I had done, and

from then the board took care of it and we made

some stipulations.

And I was told to be careful who I

talked to, where I went, and make sure I always

had somebody with me.

Q. Other than your confession, did the

church meeting consist of anyone else saying or

doing anything?

A. Saying or doing anything?

Q. Presumably, when you say you gave a

confession, you stood up and confessed to what you

had done wrong?

A. Correct.

Q. Other than that, did anyone else say --

for instance, did people that were in attendance

say here is what I think about it or --

A. Sure, some of them did at that point in

time.

Q. Was the church meeting recorded in any

way, whether minutes were prepared or --

A. No.

Q. -- audio recordings or anything?

A. No.

Q. Any documentation that relates to that

church meeting?

A. No.

Q. Is there a list of who attended that

meeting?

A. No.

Q. What was it that you said in your

confession there?

A. I told them what sin I committed.

Q. Right. And that was it?

A. That was it.

Q. So I committed adultery?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you discuss details?

Not very much, no..

Q. And then you said the board dealt with

it from there. Was there a separate board

meeting?

A. Yes. We had several board meetings

after that.

Q. Were minutes prepared with respect to

those board meetings?

A. Not those specific ones, no.

Q. Why not?

A. Because they were church issues. We

weren't dealing with the organizational structure.

We were dealing with church issues, religious

things.

Q. With respect to your discipline from the

board, are there any documents of which you are

aware that relate to that?

A. No.

Q. All of it was oral?

A. Yes.

Q. Were there any recordings made of any of

that?

A. No.

Q. And you say you are still under

discipline. What do you mean by that?

A. Well, we set up a rule at that time that

nobody would go off the grounds or anywhere by

themself, we would always have somebody with us.

And we all still abide by that. We all abide by

that.

It's just to be a little safer. We are

watching for each other's soul and each other's

way. So whenever anyone goes off the ground or

does anything, they have someone with them.

Q. And that applies to everyone there?

A. Just about, yes. I don't know of

anybody that goes off the ground -- in fact,

nobody is ever told to go off the ground without

somebody else with them.

Q. I understand. Well, then is there

anything in addition to that that you are subject

to, individually, that you would call discipline?

No.

Q. Now, tell me about the instance of

adultery. Who was the person?

A. I don't want to answer that.

Q. I understand you don't want to, but, I

mean, I have a job to do and --

A. Right. It has nothing to do with this

case.

Q. I understand that, but you still have to

tell me.

A. Tell you what?

Q. The name of the person with whom you

committed adultery.

MR. CHAPLIN: Skip, I think that the --

the objection I raised states that the two cases,

or the name would be the plaintiff in that matter

that we brought 40J.

MR. UTSEY: I understand that. But the

rules say that the only way the witness can

refrain from answering the question is if it's the

subject of attorney-client privilege, and it's not

of a privileged matter, so I have a right to ask

about it even though it may or may not be

admissible at trial later on.

Q. So, anyway, back to the question.

THE WITNESS: Do I have to answer that?

MR. CHAPLIN: Yeah. Just give him the

answer. If it continues we are just going

to --

THE WITNESS: What answer am I supposed

to answer?

MR. CHAPLIN: Give him the name. And if

this continues we are going to have to take a

stronger stance. Go ahead.

Q. With whom did you commit adultery?

A. Stacey was one of them, Stacey Belford.

Q. And there were others?

A. Yes. There was one more.

Q. Who was that?

Laquiela Jones, at that time.

Q. With Ms. Belford, was this a

consensual --

MR. CHAPLIN: Skip, I'm sorry. We are

going to have to --

MR. UTSEY: Well, if you are going to

file a motion for protective order, then we can

file a motion for protective order and deal with

it.

MR. CHAPLIN: Okay, then we have to deal

with it. Because I thought we were coming here

today to talk about the cases that were on the

docket that we needed to address. And right now

what I feel like is you are pulling a fast one. I

don't think that this is appropriate.

We should not be talking about cases

that are not on the docket at this present time.

They are not even of consideration.

MR. UTSEY: Well, but it's discovery,

and this could lead to discoverable material and

it's a credibility issue.

MR. CHAPLIN: When I prepared him for

his deposition I told him the cases that we would

be discussing, and I did not tell him we would be

discussing the cases where the adultery was an

issue. And, I mean, because I didn't -- because

they are on 40J. They are a 40J motion that we

both agreed to.

MR. UTSEY: I understand that. But, for

the record, I think anything that might tend to

lead to discoverable evidence with respect to

these cases, including issues of credibility and

matters of where he has been disciplined by the

church of which he's a member, are clearly

relevant to those issues.

MR. CHAPLIN: However, and you --

MR. UTSEY: Here is what needs to

happen. If you are going to instruct him not to

answer any further questions on this, then the

rules are pretty clear about your obligation to

file a motion with the Court seeking a protective

order and then we can have this discussion with a

judge and deal with it down the road.

MR. CHAPLIN: That's fine, and I think

we should.

MR. UTSEY: If that's what we are going

to do, at least we can move on to another subject,

if that is your intention.

MR. CHAPLIN: Okay. My intention is to

file a motion for protective order.

MR. UTSEY: Okay. So you are going to

instruct him not to answer any further questions

on this topic?

MR. CHAPLIN: That's correct.

MR. UTSEY: Then reserving all rights,

we will move on to another topic.

Q. Other than that episode of being

disciplined by the board, have you ever been

disciplined by the board or any other authority

within the Faith Cathedral Fellowship?

A. No.

MR. CHAPLIN: And, Skip, can we make

clear what the topic is that I'm instructing him

not to answer questions on? Not on disciplinary

action, but based on the 40J -- cases that are on

40J.

MR. UTSEY: If you are instructing him

not to answer, I think you need to make it clear.

MR. CHAPLIN: Okay. I just want to make

sure you and I understand.

MR. UTSEY: What are you instructing him

not to answer?

MR. CHAPLIN: Cases with regards to

plaintiffs whose cases have been placed on a 40J

status.

MR. UTSEY: Okay.

MR. CHAPLIN: Which we did not come here

today to discuss. We are not preparing for trial

for those. Those are on the back burner, so to

speak.

Q. Who is the custodian of corporate

records with Faith Cathedral Fellowship?

A. Custodian?

Q. Is there one person that maintains the

corporate records? If I wanted to get them, who

would be the best person to go to to get them?

A. Probably me.

Q. Does that include minutes of the board

of directors meetings?

A. Yes.

Q. Does it include financial records?

A. Yes. I would be the one to authorize

it.

Q. And does that include corporate records,

things that you filed with the state, that sort of

thing?

A. We don't file with the state.

Q. Well, to obtain the corporation status.

You had to have had a --

A. I have all of those records, yes.

Q. Now, you said something about

authorizing what, financial expenditures?

A. I didn't say anything about that, that I

know of.

Q. Oh, okay. I said something about does

that include financial records, and you said, yes,

because I would have authorized it, or I may have

misunderstood you.

A. Yeah. I am the one that authorizes what

is spent and what is not spent, yes.

Q. Is there anyone else in Faith Cathedral

Fellowship that has the authority to dictate what

is spent and what is not spent?

They all do, if they want to.

Q. Does anyone else exercise that

authority?

A. No. They trust me.

Q. Does the board have to approve your

decisions with respect to expenditures?

A. No.

Q. Does it, in fact, do that?

A. No. They could if they wanted to, but

they don't need to.

Q. So in terms of what money Faith

Cathedral Fellowship spends, you are the one

making those decisions?

A. Basically, yes.

Q. Well, basically suggests that is not a

yes, or not a complete yes.

A. Yes.

Q. It is a yes?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Have you ever been arrested?

A. Here?

Q. What I'm seeking to find out is any time

you have ever been arrested anywhere, I want to

know about it. You were arrested in Colleton

County?

A. Yes.

Q. And charged with what?

THE WITNESS: We are going back at this

again.

MR. CHAPLIN: Right. Uhm --

MR. UTSEY: Well, this is different,

though. This is clearly, under the rules, related

to questions of witness credibility.

I am asking him about the charge. I am

not asking about the details of what happened. I

am asking what he's been arrested for and charged

with.

MR. CHAPLIN: And I would object to that

as asked and answered because I think that you

have that information already. In the discovery,

I think we provided that.

MR. UTSEY: Well, I still have the right

to ask him about it.

MR. CHAPLIN: Well, to your best

knowledge answer the question.

A. I was arrested in Colleton County, two

charges of second-degree sexual assault, which had

to do with the adultery, and one that has to do

with breach of trust, and one that has to do

with --

THE WITNESS: What was that burial

situation?

MR. CHAPLIN: Just that's your

testimony. Just go ahead and describe it that

way.

Q. The fourth charge dealt with a burial?

A. Yes. We had to bury a child. And I

don't know what they called it, unlawful burial,

whatever it was. And they have all been disposed

of, which you already know, don't you?

Q. I have some knowledge of it, but I may

not have full knowledge, and that is why I'm going

to ask you --

A. I am sure the court can give you a

record on it.

Q. And you can, too. But, see, I don't get

to testify at trial, and that is why I need to ask

what you understand about this.

What was the disposition of the two

charges for second-degree sexual assault?

A. They were dismissed or put away with or

thrown out. I don't know what word is used.

MR. CHAPLIN: I think you were

appropriate when you said dismissed.

Q. Did you plead guilty or not guilty to

those charges?

A. I didn't plead either way.

MR. CHAPLIN: They were dismissed.

Q. What was the disposition of the breach

of trust charge?

A. Same thing.

Q. What was the disposition of the burial

charge?

A. Same thing.

Q. Did you reach any type of plea agreement

with respect to any of the charges that were

pending in Colleton County?

A. Yeah. They had me agree to a simple

assault.

Q. And did you plead guilty to that?

A. I sure did.

Q. Was that one or two charges?

A. Let me see. That was --

MR. CHAPLIN: If you don't recall, just

say you don't recall.

A. I don't recall.

MR. UTSEY: At a certain point -- the

rules are pretty clear that you are not supposed

to be coaching him. I haven't objected to that up

until now.

MR. CHAPLIN: Okay. Objection noted.

Q. You pled guilty to simple assault. And

who was the victim of that simple assault?

A. The two young ladies.

Q. Belford and Jones?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you plead guilty to anything else?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever been arrested at any other

time in your life?

A. I was arrested in Savannah many years

ago for bill of trover. That's what they used to

call it.

Q. And what did you understand that related

to?

A. I bought an organ.

Q. A what?

A. An organ, and it wasn't any good, and I

didn't pay for it, and until I returned the organ

they arrested me. They either wanted the organ or

the money or me. So they arrested me until I

returned the organ. And I had to go get the

organ, and when the organ was returned the judge

was satisfied.

Q. Was that a civil action?

A. I don't really know. I just know the

sheriff came out.

Q. Do you know whether you ended up

pleading guilty or not guilty?

A. I didn't plead nothing. When the organ

was returned, they just turned me loose.

Q. And were all charges dismissed?

A. If there were any charges at all.

Q. So, in other words, you didn't have to

satisfy any criminal penalty, whether it be

incarceration or fine or anything like that?

A. No.

Q. What year was that, approximately?

A. I don't recall. I can't --

Q. When were you in Savannah?

A. It all was around 25 years ago. It

might have been 30 years ago, somewhere along in

there. That was even before I even moved to

Savannah, so it might have been 32 years ago.

Q. Have you ever been arrested at any other

times in your life?

A. Yes. I was arrested one time in

Oklahoma.

Q. What was that all about?

A. What did they charge me with? Do you

know what they -- I don't know what --

(Telephone rang.)

MR. CHAPLIN: Can I take it in your

office?

MR. UTSEY: Yes.

(A recess was taken.)

Q. I was asking you about the arrest in

Oklahoma.

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember what the charge was?

A. I was thinking -- I think they called it

outrage and public decency.

Q. And did you understand what the

circumstances were that led to that charge?

A. Yes.

Q. What was that?

A. A little girl said I made a gesture at

her.

Q. And what happened with that charge?

A. They were dismissed.

Q. Did you plead guilty, not guilty?

A. It didn't even go to court.

Q. But did you ever have to file a plea?

A. No.

Q. Did you pay a fine or anything like

that?

A. No, just dismissed and told me it was

done.

Q. And where was that in Oklahoma?

A. Muskogee.

Q. And how long ago did that happen,

approximately?

A. 45 years.

Q. Oh, okay. It's been a long time?

MR. CHAPLIN: How many years? I'm

sorry. I didn't hear that.

THE WITNESS: 45. At least 45, I would

say.

Q. Other than the arrest in Oklahoma that

we just discussed, Savannah that we previously

discussed and Colleton County that we have

previously discussed, have you ever been arrested?

A. Huh-huh.

Q. That is a no?

A. That's it.

Q. I am trying to make sure your answer is

clear for the record.

A. No. I wasn't arrested anyplace else.

Q. Other than the one instance of

discipline by the board of Faith Cathedral

Fellowship, have you ever been disciplined by any

other church with which you have been affiliated?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever been treated -- these are

standard questions. Have you ever been treated

for any type of substance abuse?

A. No.

Q. Or addiction?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever been treated for any sort

of mental or emotional problems?

A. No.

Q. Do you have a family doctor?

A. No.

Q. Do you get medical treatment at all?

A. No.

Q. When is the last time you received

medical treatment? Never?

A. No.

Q. Dental work?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have a dentist locally?

A. Yes.

Q. Who is that?

A. Dr. Rhoades.

Q. Have you ever seen any other health care

provider other than Dr. Rhoades?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever been involuntarily

committed to any type of institution?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever been a party to any civil

action other than those initiated by my clients?

A. Yes.

Q. Tell me about those.

A. We had a farm in Alabama, and a fellow

tried to take it from us that was living on it,

and it was resolved.

Q. Where was that?

A. Let's see. What county was that in? It

was down near Auburn. I can't think exactly where

it was.

Q. And you said we had a farm. Who is

that?

A. Someone gave the church a farm, and we

let somebody live on it, and he wanted us to sign

it over to him because he thought that we --

Q. And so --

A. So he sued us.

Q. He sued you?

A. Yes.

Q. He sued the ministry?

A. Right.

Q. And it was resolved how?

A. The judge made us -- we gave him back

his $25,000 that he gave, and then put him off the

land and we got the farm back.

Q. So it did end up going to court?

A. Yes. It went to court.

Q. When was this?

A. I don't remember the dates.

Q. Approximately?

A. Five, six, seven, eight years ago.

Q. Does the church still own that farm?

A. No.

Q. What happened to it?

A. We sold it.

Q. When was that?

A. About the same time.

Q. To the same individual or to someone

else?

A. No. We sold it to somebody else.

Q. Is that the only other time that you

have been involved in a civil lawsuit?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you ever been involved in any

litigation in probate court?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever been involved in any sort

of quasi-judicial administrative actions?

A. No.

Q. How does Overcomer Ministries -- what

income does it have?

A. I'm not sure if I understand your

question.

Q. Well, does Overcomer Ministries have

income? Does it have money that comes into it?

A. Yes. People give us offerings.

Q. Does it have any other sources of

income?

A. No.

Q. And, generally speaking -- I have got

some computer printouts that we will talk about in

a moment that your attorney has turned over.

But, generally speaking, what categories

of expenditures does Overcomer Ministries have?

What does it spend its money on?

A. Radio broadcasting.

Q. Anything else?

A. And maintaining of the facilities up

there on the farm. That's it.

Q. How long have you been in the radio

broadcasting business?

A. All my life.

Q. And so the entire time that Faith

Cathedral Fellowship has been in existence, one of

the expenditures it has had has been radio?

A. Yeah, the biggest ones, yes.

Q. And what type of radio?

A. All kinds. What is on the radio? I

mean, what do you mean by that? I don't

understand the question.

Q. I mean, is it commercial radio,

programming?

A. No, no. We are not commercial at all.

Nothing is commercial.

Q. I understood something about shortwave

radio that I know very little about there.

A. Shortwave radio is like any other radio.

You buy time on the stations and you pay them for

the time that you broadcast on them, and that is

what we do.

We buy time from stations in America and

we buy shortwave time in different parts of the

world. We pay for satellites, any forms that get

the signal into the stations, and that is what we

pay for.

Q. I guess that is what I meant. When I

said commercial radio, would it be on AM bands or

FM bands?

A. AM, FM, shortwave, Internet, satellite,

whatever source that they use. We use all of

them.

Q. So you said satellite, for example. I

understand there is like XM radio or Sirius radio?

A. No. Satellite sends a signal to other

parts of the world, or any part of the world. It

uses satellite to send a signal.

Q. I see. And so you pay whoever owns the

satellite or manages the satellite?

A. We pay many stations. We pay people who

own the satellite. You have to pay them for it,

yes.

Q. Same with the Internet?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, is there documentation related to

what your charges are for that air time?

A. We have the records of every dime ever

spent, every record to every station anyplace in

the world, yes.

Q. So, in other words, if you had received

an invoice from Station X for the air time, would

you have that?

A. We have the invoices, we have the

canceled checks, the payments. They are all paid.

Q. I noticed in the -- and I'm sort of

jumping ahead of myself, but these account

printouts that your attorney provided, one of the

line item expenses is radio. And, as you said,

it's probably the largest expenditure?

A. Yes.

Q. Under that line item of radio, is there

anything included other than the air time itself

that you purchase?

A. Well, there are things that have to do

with the signal satellites and the air time you

purchase and the facilities you use, yes. It's

all included in the --

Q. That is what I'm driving at. What all

is under that heading of radio?

A. I just explained it to you. We have

satellite, Internet, and we pay the station for

the time. We pay the people who provide the

satellites. We have to pay them. And we have to

pay for the Internet serving, the T-1 lines and

things like that.

Q. Are there any other aspects of the radio

broadcast that fall under that expense category on

your bookkeeping?

A. Not as far as air time, no.

Q. For example, do you have a studio, or do

you rent a studio or what?

A. We have a place. On our farm we have

our own radio facilities. We have our own

facilities.

Q. And when you purchased that equipment,

how is that expenditure handled?

A. It's probably listed down some way.

Either computer or radio or some way it's listed.

Q. That is what I'm trying to figure out.

I am trying to break down these categories on your

expense list, and I'm wondering if radio includes,

for example, any equipment?

A. We could go into radio and we could tell

where every dime went, whether it went for the

computers in the radio room or whether it went for

the printing of -- yes, we could.

Q. How would you do that?

A. How do we do what?

Q. How would you go into it to find that

out?

A. Well, the computer has the categories.

The bookkeeping has categories. If we spend

$1,000 for radio, and then you went to the

category and say this was spent for the computer

room, and this was spent for the satellite uplink,

and this was spent for the --

MR. UTSEY: Okay. Well, let me go ahead

and mark this document as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1.

(Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 1 was marked

for identification.)

Q. For the record, Exhibit 1 is a group of

documents which appear to be computer printouts

which your attorney furnished to me.

The dates appear to range from the year

19 -- it's hard to read some of them because they

were faxed -- 1992, I believe, through 2004. Can

you identify that?

A. Sure.

Q. What is it?

A. It's our bookkeeping record.

Q. A printout of the bookkeeping record?

A. Right.

Q. Do you know what type of software you

use to maintain these records?

A. On this one right here we might have

used -- we have changed them often. We might have

used Money Accounts on this one, and now we have

QuickBooks, I think. I would have to go back and

check and see which one.

Q. So that if you were to -- let's don't

talk too much about the printout itself, but let's

talk about what is on the computer.

If you were to pull up a screen to see,

for example --

A. It would be that.

Q. January 1 through December 31, 2004,

You would have something that looks like that

page?

A. That is the report that would come out

from the screen.

Q. And then if I wanted to see an

itemization under an expense category --

A. No problem.

Q. -- what would you do, click on that

category?

A. Yeah, click on it and print it out.

Q. Are those itemizations per category

contained within Exhibit 1?

A. This is the report. I don't know what

you are asking me on that one.

Q. Let's look at the top page, which is

January 1 through December 31, 2004.

A. Right.

Q. The first expense item on that list is

animals?

A. Right. That has to do with the farm.

We could tell you what we spent for the animals.

That is expense. That is what we pay for the

animals, or feed or something like that.

Q. Right. So let's say -- and I'm just

using this one as an example to help understand

how this is formatted in the computer.

I see that for the total year $12,100

was spent on animals, correct?

A. Right.

Q. And if I wanted to know, well, was that

purchasing feed or was that --

A. Yes.

Q. -- veterinary care, or whatever the

expenditures might have been, what would I do from

this page to find that out?

A. You would punch up animals and we would

search out the categories. It would tell you what

was spent for it.

Q. Can you generate a printout or a report

of that category?

A. Yes, I'm pretty sure.

Q. Does Exhibit 1 contain that type of

printout, or is it just the overall printout of

each category?

A. This is the report that we asked for.

We could ask for a report on something else and

get a report on it.

Q. So if, for example --

A. For instance, I have right here some

reports that she pulled out this morning that have

to do with certain things. In fact, every one of

those people right there, I have a report of

what -- of their records right there.

Q. You have them with you?

A. Yeah, but I am not going to give them to

you right now.

Q. Well, why not?

A. Because they are for my benefit. If the

time comes and we need them, we can give you that

report.

Q. Okay. The time will probably come

either today or later. I don't know.

A. Good.

Q. When we started this discussion I was

asking you about radio. What you are telling me

is that if we needed to see where each penny was

spent on --

A. Every dime, every check.

Q. You could generate reports for that?

A. Absolutely.

Q. Okay, good. Who is the individual that

maintains the documentation in the computer

program? Is that Teresa?

Yes.

MR. UTSEY: Are those notes or are

those --

MR. CHAPLIN: No. You know what, you

can have these.

MR. UTSEY: -- actual printouts?

MR. CHAPLIN: No. These are notes,

personal notes. And, I mean, we could call this

privileged, but it's nothing that we are going to

try to hide.

THE WITNESS: No.

MR. UTSEY: We will get to it in a

minute.

MR. CHAPLIN: Okay, fine. There is no

problem with that.

THE WITNESS: She just wanted to inform

me on that.

MR. CHAPLIN: I understand. That is

going to come up anyway, and I think we should be

forthright with that. Thanks for bringing that.

Q. Does Faith Cathedral Fellowship have a

policy with respect to the return of any offerings

or donations?

A. No.

Q. In the past, has Faith Cathedral

Fellowship ever returned some or all of anyone's

donations or offerings?

A. Yes.

Q. How were the decisions made to do that?

A. I make the decision.

Q. And on how many occasions have you done

that?

A. Oh, eight or ten.

Q. Did any of them involve individuals

other than people who have brought these lawsuits

and the man in Alabama who the judge told you to

return his $25,000?

A.