IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS
FOR THE STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA
DEPOSITION OF RALPH GORDON STAIR
GLENDON ALLABY, KATHRYN ALLABY, CORA PFUND, ERIC
PFUND, GREG LINDSEY, LARRY HARTLEY, MICHAEL DUVAL,
KATHLEEN DUVAL, PEARL BUTLER, TIMOTHY BUTLER and
vs. CASE NO. 04-CP-15-382
R.G. STAIR and FAITH CATHEDRAL FELLOWSHIP, INC.,
a/k/a OVERCOMER MINISTRIES,
DEPONENT: RALPH GORDON STAIR
DATE: December 4, 2006
TIME: 9:00 a.m.
LOCATION: PETERS MURDAUGH PARKER ELTZROTH &
123 Walter Street
Walterboro, SC 29488
REPORTED BY: NANCY ENNIS TIERNEY, CSR (IL)
CLARK & ASSOCIATES
P.O. Box 73129
North Charleston, SC 29415
A P P E A R A N C E S
FOR THE PLAINTIFFS:
PETERS, MURDAUGH, PARKER, ELTZROTH
& DETRICK, P.A. SMITH
BY: BERT GLENN UTSEY, III
123 Walter Street
Walterboro, SC 29488
FOR THE DEFENDANTS:
LAW OFFICES OF MATHIAS G. CHAPLIN, P.A.
BY: MATHIAS G. CHAPLIN
206 E. Washington Street
Walterboro, SC 29488
I N D E X
Witness Sworn 4
By Mr. Utsey 4
By Mr. Chaplin 225
By Mr. Utsey 229
Certificate of Reporter 250
Deponent Correction Sheet 251
E X H I B I T S
Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 1 77
Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 2 106
Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 3 117
Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 4 163
Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 5 189
Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 6 200
Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 7 204
Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 8 214
RALPH GORDON STAIR, having first
duly affirmed, testified as hereinafter set forth.
BY MR. UTSEY:
Q. Can you give me your full name, please?
A. Ralph Gordon Stair.
Q. Mr. Stair, we are going to take your
deposition here today. Have you ever provided a
deposition before in any other cases?
Q. On how many occasions?
A. One time.
Q. Do you generally understand how this
A. Very well.
Q. I am going to go over a few points that
I normally cover with folks before we begin. You
may know some or all of this, but I think it's
helpful sometimes to tell people what to expect
and how this process works. It makes it go a
little more smoothly and quickly, hopefully.
I am going to ask you some questions,
and you are going to give me answers to the best
of your knowledge and to the best of your
ability. And, of course, your answers need to be
truthful, as you affirmed you would do.
The purpose here is for me to
investigate, or what we lawyers call discover,
different parts of this case.
Under our laws, I can't talk to you
except for two occasions, one is here in the
deposition with your attorney present and the
other is if we go to trial and you are on the
So it's important for me to take this
time to understand the knowledge you have about
these cases and to investigate the case from that
A. All right.
Q. I explain that to you now so that you
will understand I'm not taking your deposition for
any other purpose, and particularly not for any
improper type purpose. I am not just here out of
curiosity to delve into your private life, for
I'm not here to try to ask what I would
characterize as trick questions or try to get you
to say something that is not accurate. It doesn't
do me any good and it doesn't do you any good.
It's simply an investigation tool.
And I also give that introduction so
that you will know that if I ask you a question
that you find to be confusing, or one that you
would rather me rephrase or repeat before you
answer it, please let me know and I will be happy
to do that.
Because it's not my intention to try and
confuse you with questions, but I know that we
lawyers sometimes will talk too much and make what
could otherwise be a simple question more
complicated than it needs to be.
A couple of ground rules that will help
with ensuring that your testimony is recorded
accurately and transcribed accurately when our
court reporter prepares the transcript.
It's difficult for her to type two
people speaking at the same time, and so it will
be important for me to wait until you finish your
answer before I ask you a question and for you to
wait for me to finish asking a question before you
begin answering it.
Now, in my experience I will probably
ask you a question before you are finished
answering, and you will probably answer a question
before I'm finished asking.
If that happens, you stop me or I will
stop you. I want you to understand it's not
because I'm being rude if I do that. It's because
I want to make sure that everything is accurate on
Q. Another thing is if you and I were just
talking on the street, we might have a
conversation where one of us shakes or nods our
head or says uh-huh or huh-huh, or something like
that, that might not be entirely clear if it were
So in response to a question, if your
answer is yes or no, you need to say yes or no
rather than shaking your head. And if you forget
to do that, I might remind you. Again, it's not
because I'm trying to be rude. It's just because
I want to make sure that your testimony is
accurate for the record.
A. Sure. Yes.
Q. If you need to take a break at any time
during the deposition, let me know, a rest room
break, coffee break, whatever, and I will be happy
to accommodate you.
I will tell you that under our rules, if
you have any conversations with anyone during a
break, including with your attorney, that when we
resume I'm entitled to ask you about the
conversations, even if those conversations might
otherwise be attorney-client privileged.
Under our rules, once a deposition
starts, then the witness is sort of on his own as
far as what he's going to say and testify and
can't get assistance from his attorney unless it's
with respect to a question of whether to claim
attorney-client privilege to a particular
Do you feel like you understand that?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. If you have any questions about the
deposition itself, or about the process that we
are using here, I will need for you to address
those questions to me and I will do my best to
answer those before we go on.
Q. Any other questions that you have before
we get started?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Are you feeling well enough to give your
A. Oh, yes.
Q. Are you taking any medication or under
the influence of anything that would affect your
ability to hear, understand and respond truthfully
to my questions here today?
Q. Let me get some background information
What is your date of birth?
A. 3rd of May, '33.
Q. Have you ever gone by any other names?
A. No. Brother Stair.
Q. Okay. Well, I understand, yeah, title.
Q. Are you married?
Q. And your wife's name?
A. Teresa Grace.
Q. Is Grace her maiden name or is that a
A. That's her middle name. Her maiden name
Q. Can you spell that? I'm putting you on
the spot, I know.
A. I'm sorry. I don't know if I can do
that or not. E-c -- Erco -- E-r-c-o-n-o-l-i-n-o,
somewhere like that.
MR. CHAPLIN: You can clarify it later
Q. How long have you-all been married?
A. I think about 25 years. I'm not sure of
the exact date.
Q. Is that your only marriage?
Q. Who was your previous marriage to?
A. Jeraldine -- let's see. What is her
name? It's been so long. I remember her middle
Q. That's okay. What was her maiden name?
A. Hilbert, H-i-l-b-e-r-t.
MR. CHAPLIN: I apologize. I am going
to ask you just to give me one second here and put
this fire out because it's involving a judge, and
then I won't have to bother you anymore. It will
just take two minutes.
MR. UTSEY: Sure.
(A recess was taken.)
Q. Before we took a break you were telling
me about the fact that you were previously married
to Jeraldine Hilbert?
Q. And that marriage ended how? Did she
pass away or did you-all get divorced or what?
A. No. She just divorced me.
Q. And approximately when was that?
A. Well, like I say, about 25, 30 years
ago, something like that.
Q. Oh, okay. And in what state was that?
A. That was in Georgia.
Q. Do you remember what county?
Q. And what were the grounds for divorce?
A. There wasn't any. She just divorced.
Q. It wasn't as if anybody accused anybody
of any wrongdoing or anything?
Q. Fair enough. Are those your only two
marriages, or did you have any marriages before
A. That's it.
Q. Any children?
A. Yeah. I have five from the first wife
and one from the second.
Q. Let me get their names and ages, please.
A. Oh, man. You are asking me questions
that I don't know if I can give you the answers
Q. I thought these were the layups.
A. Well, I don't know how old each one of
Q. Give me -- I assume they are all over
the age of 18 if you had been married to her 25 --
A. Definitely. All of my children from her
are -- the oldest is probably at least 50s and
then down to 40s. Probably the youngest one is
somewhere, I would say, in his 30s.
And then I have a young daughter with my
second wife, and she is 20.
Q. What is her name?
A. Naomi. Her last name is Bowles,
B-o-w-l-e-s. She is married now.
Q. Where does she live?
A. Up near Columbia.
Q. Do any of your children live in Colleton
Q. Other than your wife, do you have any
other relatives who reside in Colleton County?
Q. How about any relatives through your
wife's side of her family?
Q. Where is your wife from originally?
A. New Jersey.
Q. How long have you been in the Colleton
A. At least 25, 30 years. Almost 30 years
I would say, 25 for sure.
Q. Before that where were you?
A. I lived in Savannah for awhile, and I
pastored a church in New York and one in Boston.
Q. Where are you from originally?
A. Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.
Q. When did you leave that area?
A. Oh, many years ago. I would say at
least 40 years ago, maybe longer than that.
Q. So the states you have lived in include
Pennsylvania, South Carolina, New York, Georgia?
A. I lived in Georgia. I lived in Alabama
for a long time years ago when I first started to
Q. Any others?
A. Where I lived?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. I lived in California for awhile.
Q. Anywhere else?
A. Of course, you know, for many years I
was a traveling evangelist so I was in a lot of
states, and I would sometimes stay in those states
for who knows how long, as far as living. I can't
say I lived in most of them, no.
Q. I guess I'm looking more for your
residence rather than --
A. I would say Georgia, Alabama, New York
and California would be the states I lived in.
Q. And then when you were doing this
out-of-town evangelism, how long would you stay if
you said you had a protracted stay?
A. Sometimes months and sometimes weeks.
Q. Now, the case here is pending in
Colleton County, and one of the things that the
lawyers for both sides will do is to try and make
sure that we have a jury that doesn't have any
connections to either the plaintiffs or the
defendants in the case.
That is why I asked you about your
relatives that may be in the county. But also,
obviously, I would also like to understand who are
members of your congregation or your ministry?
A. We don't have any membership.
Q. Do you have folks that associate
themselves with -- am I using the term correctly
to say congregation, or do you call it fellowship
A. We have people who come to our meetings,
yes, but they are not members. They just attend
our services, and that could be some from here,
some from locally. People drive in from various
Q. Do you have folks who live on the
Q. Are there any lists of such people that
can be produced?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. So is it fair to say that if we were
preparing to try this case, if we get to that
point, I could get a list from Mr. Chaplin just to
make sure I could compare that against the
prospective jury list?
Q. All right. What would I call that list
if I was to ask for it?
A. I guess the residents of the Overcomer
community. Of course, they don't all live with
me. There are other people in the area.
Q. Who attend services?
Q. Do you maintain a list of donors? Say
someone doesn't live on the community but they
A. Yes. We have people who donate money.
We have a list of every one of them, sure, but I
don't know if I could give you that list.
MR. CHAPLIN: I think we provided
something in discovery already with regards to all
of the different plaintiffs.
MR. UTSEY: Right, but I'm looking more
in terms of selecting a jury.
MR. CHAPLIN: Selecting a jury. Okay.
A. You are talking about somebody in the
area that could be potential jurors?
MR. CHAPLIN: Somebody that might have
donated money so that he could actually --
Q. Yeah. Hypothetically, I guess a jury
list has 150 names on it. If one person buried in
that 150 names is someone who regularly attends
and donates --
A. That wouldn't be a problem.
Q. -- I want to know that.
MR. CHAPLIN: On voir dire, wouldn't
they have to answer that, though, if they ever
MR. UTSEY: In my experience, not
everybody answers those questions accurately. And
that's not always intentional. I mean, I think
sometimes they get confused or don't know what
they should answer. But there is always some --
A. If I understand your question correctly,
you are wanting to know anybody in this general
area that could be a potential juror?
Q. Who has a relationship with you.
A. Right. That isn't no problem.
Q. Okay. If you-all want to do the same
thing with the people that might have a
relationship with my clients, we will give you
Q. Easy enough. Let me get some more
background information on you, Mr. Stair. How far
did you go in terms of formal education?
A. I went to 10th grade.
Q. Where was that?
A. In Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.
Q. What school is that?
A. Bethlehem High School. That is the last
one I attended.
Q. Did you get a GED after that or any
other formal education?
A. No. I took Bible study courses and
things like that from various religious
organizations, but I never --
Q. Did you ever serve in the military?
Q. Tell me about your religious training,
your Bible study courses or however you want to
A. Well, you just took Bible study courses
that they had, theological, doctrines and things
like that. That is what they were.
Q. Are these formal courses of study?
A. Yes. Sure.
Q. And when you finish those do you get
some sort of certificate of completion or degree?
A. They would just give you a little
certificate of completion.
Q. Give me some idea of what those
involved, or which one of those you have done.
A. Well, I took a course with the Free
Methodist Church. That is back when I was 17, 18
years of age. I have never had any theological
biblical school things.
I started preaching when I was 16, and
my preaching, my manner of life, was under the
auspices of different churches where you would run
this -- they would call you an exhorter, or
something like that, and you would practice your
And they would then approve of you,
whether you were a pastor or not. I joined maybe
four or five churches over the years, but most of
the time I just preached.
Q. I don't have a lot of experience with
the structure or lack of structure that is
associated with that, so some of my questions may
sound like they are uninformed, and that is
because they are, so help me in understanding
First of all, in terms of certificates
of completion --
A. I don't have any.
Q. You don't have any of those?
Q. You said that some churches have
recognized you as a pastor or --
A. Well, you would start out -- when I
first started out, I started out in what they
called at that time was the Holiness Christian
Church, and then I went to the Free Methodist
Church, and each one of these churches would have
steps of degree of preaching.
First they would give you what they call
an exhorter's license, and then you would operate
under that for a year or two. And then if you met
their qualifications they would advance you to
another license. And eventually you would get
ordained. That was a lot of different
organizations that I worked in because I was a
traveling evangelist, and I would work with a lot
Q. Were you ordained in any of those
Q. What would have been the highest level
that you attained within --
A. A licensed preacher, a licensed pastor
or licensed evangelist.
Q. When I hear the term license, that
A. They would give you a license that they
recognized as a pastor or an evangelist in their
Q. A license being issued by that group?
Q. As opposed to some sort of state agency
or something like that?
Q. Have any of those licenses -- or any of
your licenses with any of those churches ever been
revoked or rescinded?
Q. With which different churches have you
been associated where you have been --
A. The only one I can think about that
MR. CHAPLIN: Let him finish the
Q. I think you understand where I'm going.
I am just trying to find out in which churches
have you been acknowledged to have attained some
level as a pastor or a minister?
A. The only two that I can -- or three of
them. There is three of them. One was the Free
Methodist Church. That is very many years ago.
Then another group, which it's a very small group,
called the German Eldership Church of God, and
that was a small group in Pennsylvania. And then
for several years I was licensed with the Assembly
The others are -- in the course of time,
you know, we became an official organized church
ourself with federal recognition. So we have
ability to ordain our own preachers or license our
Q. You are talking about current church?
A. Yes, which has been in existence for 25
years at least, or maybe 30.
Q. Well, I am going to talk about that, but
I just want to make sure I have covered all of the
territory in between when you began preaching and
up until the point which you formed Overcomer
Have we done that?
A. Yes, pretty well. I mean, like I say,
up until I came here and organized this church
group here, we started in New York and then moved
out of New York, came here and transferred here,
and we organized it here, and we got the federal
recognition and we got the organizational
And from that point on -- but prior to
that I was just mostly a traveling evangelist. I
did pastor a few churches. I pastored one in
Alabama. That is another one. That one I was
licensed by. I pastored there for five years.
Q. What was that called?
A. That was called the Full Gospel Church
Q. Okay. Now, how long was it that you
were doing the traveling evangelism?
A. I would say I traveled even after I came
here. I stopped the traveling about four or five
years ago when I was pretty well tied up here with
the work I was doing here. But even when I came
here I would travel almost every month somewhere
Q. Was there a period before you began the
Overcomer Ministries that you were a traveling
evangelist, as you described it earlier, where you
A. I would do both. I would pastor
churches and travel at the same time. I had a
church for many years in Savannah, Savannah,
Georgia, and then I would travel. But I would
have revivals, too. So I was always either
pastoring or in the course of having meetings.
Q. And when you were traveling and having
these revival meetings, was that under the
auspices of the church with which you were
affiliated at the time?
Q. Not independent of that church?
A. No. The church -- for instance, the
church we had in Savannah, it was affiliated with
Full Gospel Churches and Ministries International,
which was an independent group of churches, and
that is where we had our affiliation then.
Q. And when you would travel, was it like
the old-time tent revivals?
A. Tent revivals, church revivals, street
meetings, jail services.
Q. And let's talk -- if I call it Overcomer
Ministries, is that the easiest way to describe
Q. The full official name of Overcomer
Ministries, though, is what?
A. Faith Cathedral Fellowship.
Q. How long has it been named Faith
A. Oh, at least 25 years.
Q. It has always had the same name?
Q. As I understand it, that is a
corporation and that is the official name of the
Q. But Overcomer Ministries is the
day-to-day name that most people refer to it as,
that you refer to it as?
A. Well, that is the way we refer to it,
yes, because that is the outreach of Faith
Q. When was Faith Cathedral Fellowship
A. I don't have the exact date. Like I
say, it's been 25 years. Paul Siegel did it. He
did it for us and did a good job.
Q. So it would have been -- you mentioned
something about being in New York and then moving
here, but it would have been after you were inside
Carolina that you had it --
A. No. I had a church in New York and
Boston, and I also had a church at that time in
Savannah. I was pastoring those three churches
and I would come back and forth.
And then I felt impressed to buy some
land, and so I came here and I bought some land
and then I moved here. When I moved here, then we
moved our -- we had already started to file for a
church organization in New York. We just about
had it done.
But then when we came here, we just
transferred it down here instead of up there. We
did it here. And that is when Faith Cathedral
became an official federally-recognized authorized
Q. There are several steps, and that is
what I'm trying to break down. The first would
have been getting a state to grant a charter of
Q. That would have been in the state of
Q. And we should be able to determine that
from the Secretary of State?
A. I can go get it. I have it at home.
Q. Because you weren't sure on the date, is
why I asked.
A. No. I would have to go look at the
Q. But you said Paul Siegel did the
Q. Did he also assist you with any other
legal aspects of forming --
A. He then got us -- he set up the
incorporation, the board, and the bylaws and
everything that is required to be recognized by
the state, and then he filed and got us the
Q. The 501(c)3?
Q. Where was Paul working at that time; do
you remember? Was he in a law firm?
A. Across the street, wasn't he?
Q. Was that with Smoak and Moody and --
Q. So has Faith Cathedral Fellowship
enjoyed 501(c)3 status continuously since that
Q. So that would be approximately, again,
A. 25 years, yes. I would have to get the
Q. What was involved in attaining that
A. Nothing particularly that I know of,
just applying for it and getting it.
Q. Do you remember what the application
Q. Are there ongoing reporting requirements
associated with that status?
Q. In other words, do you have to make
filings on an annual basis, for example?
A. Not on that one. We are not a nonprofit
organization per se. We are a religious
organization, and religious organizations do not
have to file reports.
Q. So other than attaining that 501(c)3
status approximately 25 years ago, have you had
any communications with the Internal Revenue
Service concerning that status since then?
A. No, because we have met the
requirements. We still do.
Q. That is what I'm wondering, whether they
monitor that to make sure that you are still doing
what you began doing and that kind of thing. Do
A. Well, if you go outside of it -- there
is three things they require you to do. They
require you to have church services, they require
you to be benevolent, and they require you to have
an education process, and we do all three of
Q. I am just curious whether you hear from
them periodically to make sure you are still doing
A. One time they checked us out, and then
they found out that we were still doing it and --
Q. And they left you alone?
Q. When was that?
Q. And who contacted you at that point?
A. They just informed us that our status
was in question. And they contacted Paul, and
Paul went back and whatever they had to do and had
Q. Were those IRS agents that contacted
A. They didn't contact me. They informed
me that we were under -- they inquired about our
status, and I took it to Paul, and Paul followed
through on our status and they reinstated us.
Well, they didn't reinstate us. They didn't take
it away from us.
Q. I'm just trying to determine who made
A. It was the IRS and it was the state
Q. State of South Carolina also made that
A. As far as I know. It didn't last very
Q. But I'm curious whether you know if it
was out of the Charleston office or the Columbia
office or --
A. I have no idea.
Q. Now, do you have a similar status with
respect to the State Department of Revenue?
A. We have nothing to do with the State
Department of Revenue. We don't have to do
anything with them at all.
Q. Is that because they have given you a
status like a 501(c)3 status, or do they
acknowledge the federal, or how does that work?
A. They just don't require anything. There
is no reporting or anything because we are a
church organization and we operate as a church
Q. Since you have created -- or since you
created Faith Cathedral Fellowship approximately
25 years ago, have you operated any other
Q. Have you operated any other businesses?
Q. Have you had any other source of income
personally since then other than through --
Q. -- the Faith Cathedral Fellowship?
A. No. I haven't taken any income from
Faith Cathedral Fellowship, if you are talking
about personally. Are you talking about me
Q. Yes, sir.
A. No. I haven't had any income at all,
and that has been checked by the IRS themselves.
They came out here and asked me about that,
checked me out.
Q. When was that?
MR. CHAPLIN: Skip, can you give me a
second? I need to confer with my client just one
minute, if you don't mind.
MR. UTSEY: Well, I have already told
him that under the rules if you-all confer I can
question him about your conference.
MR. CHAPLIN: Okay. That's fine. Can I
just say something to him in front of you?
MR. UTSEY: Yes.
MR. CHAPLIN: Please listen to the form
of the question and just answer the question.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
Q. Was that the same time that the IRS
contacted Paul or you about the status of Faith
Cathedral Fellowship that they also contacted you
about your personal income?
A. It was in the general same time, yes.
Q. And was that the Federal IRS?
Q. Did it also involve the State Department
Q. And did Paul deal with that issue as
A. All I know is they came to see me.
Q. Oh, okay. You actually got an in-person
Q. And who was it?
A. They sent two agents out, two IRS
agents, and they asked me a simple question.
Q. What was that?
A. How come you don't pay no income tax.
Q. And did that resolve the issue?
Q. Is that the only time that they made any
such inquiry of you?
Q. Do you have an accountant for the
A. Just my wife. She is our accountant.
Q. Is she actually an accountant or a
bookkeeper or what?
A. She is very good at it.
Q. Well, does she have any formal training,
I guess is what I'm --
Q. How long has she been in that position
of accountant or bookkeeper?
A. Ever since we were married.
Q. So the entire life of Faith Cathedral
Fellowship, has she been the person that has
handled that end of it?
Q. Does she have an official title with
Faith Cathedral Fellowship?
A. No. She is a vice president of the
Q. That is kind of what I'm driving at.
Who is the treasurer of the corporation?
A. I would say she is the treasurer, yes.
Q. Has there ever been anyone else who has
handled the books of Faith Cathedral Fellowship
other than Teresa?
Q. Have the books ever been subject to any
sort of external audit by an accounting firm or
Q. Have you ever used a CPA firm or any
other outside accountant with respect to Faith
Q. Help me with the understanding of the
officers, the current officers and directors of
Faith Cathedral Fellowship. Are you the
A. I am the president, and the vice
president, and we have a chairman of the board and
we have -- I forget how many board members there
are, seven or eight.
Q. Let's talk about the officers first.
You said you are the president and you believe
Teresa is the vice president?
Q. And also the treasurer?
Q. Does the corporation have a secretary,
to your knowledge?
Q. Who is that?
Margaret Maratto passed away a couple of weeks ago
Q. I saw her name in some of the answers to
interrogatories and whatnot, but I wasn't clear on
whether she was a secretary in the sense that she
was an employee who did secretarial functions or
whether she was a corporate officer secretary?
A. She is just a corporate officer. We
don't have any employees.
Q. And what are her job -- or what are her
responsibilities, rather, as a corporate
A. She just stays in the office. She
answers the phones. She helps with the mail. She
takes the minutes in special meetings that we
have, like secretaries do.
Q. Does she maintain official corporate
records such as minutes of annual meetings,
resolutions, that sort of thing?
Q. How long has Margaret Moratto been in
the position of secretary?
A. 20 years, at least.
Q. And since she became secretary, has
anyone else functioned in that office?
Q. Have you always been the president of
Q. And has Teresa always been the vice
Q. Are there any other corporate officers
aside from -- we will talk about the board of
directors in a minute.
A. Just the board.
Q. Let's talk about the board of directors.
Who is the chairman of the board?
A. Chris Gingrich.
Q. Can you spell his last name?
A. G-r-i-n-r-i-c-k (sic).
MR. CHAPLIN: Say it one more time.
THE WITNESS: Chris Gingrich,
Q. I have seen the name Brother
Christopher. Is that the same person?
Q. How long has Chris Gingrich been the
chairman of the board?
A. Ever since we started.
Q. And he resides where?
He resides over in Bamberg County.
Q. Who are the other members of the board?
A. Dave Moratto, Timothy Jones, Rick Bell.
I have to think for a minute. That is four.
Christopher is not on that, right?
Q. Are you a member?
A. Yeah. I'm a member, and my wife is a
member, and the secretary is a member.
MR. CHAPLIN: Moratto.
Q. Is Dave Moratto Margaret's husband?
Q. That is seven. Is that everybody?
A. I can't think of any more right now.
Q. Is there anyone who has ever been a
member of the board who is no longer a member of
A. Not that I know of, no.
Q. Have all of the current members of the
board always been members of the board since --
A. Yes, yes.
Q. -- the fellowship was founded?
A. Well, no. Some of them came -- when we
first started we didn't have a full board. And
then as time went on we got the board membership.
Under the original charter it was just me and my
wife, but then we got the board later on as we
Q. I understand. What is the function of
the board of directors?
A. We report to them on what we are doing,
why we are doing it, and what our purpose of the
ministry is all about.
Q. And other than receiving these reports,
does the board of directors do anything with
respect to the Faith Cathedral Fellowship?
A. Whatever needs to be done.
Q. Give me an example.
A. Well, right now I don't know what answer
you are looking for because the board, they can
discipline me, which they did. They have
disciplined me in the past, or they question me.
I have to give an account of what I'm doing. They
know how we operate and what our functions are.
Q. Help me understand the structure of
Faith Cathedral Fellowship. I mean, I understand
that you have the officers that we have just
discussed and the board of directors.
And, again, this is a question of total
ignorance as far as how this church is organized.
I can have a preconceived notion because of the
church I have always attended is set up one way
and yours is probably different, so I don't know
how to compare them.
Are there employees at all?
Q. No employees. Is there a church
discipline, or is there some structure within the
church as far as who is the head of the church?
A. We have the bylaws, the church bylaws
that have been incorporated, and we function by
Q. Are those the corporate bylaws or are
A. Corporate bylaws.
Q. Other than that, is there any sort of
text which deals with how the church is organized
A. Only according to the Bible. We use the
scriptures through our discipline.
Q. So the head of the church under your
bylaws is whom? And I'm not talking about God. I
am just saying the head of it.
A. I am the president of the corporation.
Q. And how does that translate into terms
of your role as minister or pastor, if at all?
A. I just pastor, preach.
MR. CHAPLIN: Do you understand the
THE WITNESS: Not quite, no. I mean, I
am the head of the organization.
MR. CHAPLIN: Let him rephrase it.
Q. I understand the corporate organization
and your role as president, but I also
understand -- and we haven't really talked about
it -- but I also understand that you preach?
A. Well, in the religious source you have
spiritual leaders, too. You have men who are
elders in the church.
Q. Well, that is the structure that I'm --
A. Well, most of those men are elders just
like they are the board of directors. They are
our leaders of the church. They are what we call
the governing body.
Of course, that is in the spiritual
realm. We recognize them as what they are, and we
use their advice and we call them in for judgments
Q. Is that the same as the board of
directors, or are there different people that
comprise the --
A. Well, some are the board of directors.
There are others who are not. Like Christopher,
who you are going to see this afternoon, he's not
on the board of directors, but he is definitely
one of our elders.
Q. Okay. Well, that is what I am trying to
A. We have -- all the men on the board are
what we call also spiritual leaders, and they help
make the judgments that need to be done in the
Q. The spiritual leaders, is that the same
A. Elders are deacons. Most churches have
elders or deacons. But we don't give those
offices, but we just recognize them as men who are
spiritual in that position.
Q. So if I use the term spiritual leaders,
that would be that category of people -- I want to
use the right term. You used the term elders, and
I didn't know if you were just using it in the
colloquial sense or whether it's specific to your
A. First of all, we don't have a membership
type of anything, so our men are recognized among
us by virtue of being there. These are men that
have been around who put their life into it, for
instance Chris Gingrich, for 30 years.
Q. Are they elected to these positions?
A. No. We don't elect them.
Q. How does someone become a spiritual
A. By recognition, by being faithful. You
just abide by the --
Q. Who are the spiritual leaders?
A. I mentioned them to you. Most of them
are the board of directors.
Q. But are there others? You said, for
A. I just mentioned also Christopher
Landry. He's a spiritual leader.
Q. That is Brother Christopher?
Q. What is his last name?
Q. Anyone else?
MR. CHAPLIN: Excuse me. Can you find a
breaking point? I want to try to call Judge James
Mack at some point.
MR. UTSEY: Sure. Let me just get this
Q. Is there anyone else who is among this
group of spiritual leaders whose names we haven't
already discussed as the board of directors?
Q. Who else?
A. Joe Klein would be one of them. Of
course we have Pastor Timothy already. How many
do I have up there? Jonathan Keiser would be one
of them. Al, I don't know his last name.
MR. CHAPLIN: Do the best you can.
A. Dennis Larivee would be one of them.
Q. Can you spell his last name?
A. L-a-r-v-i-e (sic).
Q. Are there others?
A. We have a community up here with about
70 some people, 70 some. Let me see. And we
honor each other as brothers and give each other
credibility as they live among us. I guess you
could call them all spiritual leaders if you
Q. Right. I am not calling anybody
anything. You used the term spiritual leaders, so
I was trying to make sure I understood who you
were talking about.
A. We don't operate in a realm of picking
out somebody and saying -- if you are a man and he
works and he's faithful and he's a brother, we
respect his opinion, we respect his judgment, and
we respect his -- they have all put their life
into this, just like I put mine into it, and they
all have an accountability to each other.
MR. UTSEY: We will take a break so you
can make your call.
MR. CHAPLIN: Thank you.
(A recess was taken.)
Q. Again, this is probably me trying to put
a square peg in a round hole, so to speak, because
I'm trying to understand the structure of your
church, using as a backdrop my understanding of
how the churches I have been affiliated with are
structured, but it may not be a good comparison.
Does your church have one or more
pastors or ministers or priests, or whatever title
they are supplied?
A. Yeah. We have at least three pastors,
and we have men who operate -- I don't know how
you would call it.
Q. What do you call them?
A. They get up and preach. Well, one is an
evangelist, two are pastors, one is a teacher.
And I'm more recognized as the prophet, which most
of your churches won't recognize.
A. But we recognize the prophet ministry.
We have teachers. We have pastors who operate --
and that's in the spiritual sense. That comes
form a spiritual extent. That is not something
you go to school and learn. It's a spiritual gift
that God gives people, which is mentioned in the
Bible, pastors, evangelists, teachers and
governments, and even some who minister with the
Ministry of Health.
Q. Help me with names for each of those
people. You are the prophet, is that correct?
Q. And there are pastors?
A. Pastor Timothy Jones is one. I would
say that Al -- I can't think of Al's last name.
MR. CHAPLIN: We can get it to him. Go
A. Dave Moratto is an evangelist. Jonathan
Keiser is a teacher. And then we have many other
men who preach. I don't know. I mean, I can't
give you a whole list of all the men who preach.
I mean, many that come in and preach are from
Q. I got you.
A. In fact, one of those fellows right
there used to preach.
Q. What fellow right where?
A. Tim Butler.
Q. Oh, one of the plaintiffs?
Q. Are any of these official titles that
are documented somewhere in church documents?
Q. It's just the way things are developed
and people go into where their talents lead them?
Q. Now, does Faith Cathedral Fellowship
have meetings, formal meetings other than worship
A. What kind of meetings are you talking
Q. Church business meetings, for example.
A. If we need them, we call them.
Q. And when you have those type meetings,
A. Anybody that wants to that belongs to --
that lives on the grounds.
Q. Are there documents generated --
A. We haven't had any yet.
Q. Oh, you haven't?
A. No. We don't have to have them because
there is no need for them.
Q. Why not?
A. Because we just have services. We
don't -- business is taken care of with the board
if we have it and that's it.
Q. That is what I was trying to understand.
So the board is really the business -- I know you
are not operating as a traditional business, so
I'm not trying to add some connotation to this
that is not there. But the business end of things
is the board? Is that fair to say?
A. They understand and know what is going
Q. Now, you mentioned --
A. Of course, we are very open, I can tell
you that. Everything that goes on up there
Q. You mentioned that the board has a
disciplinary function and that it has disciplined
you in the past. Explain that to me.
A. Yeah. A few years ago I committed
adultery and they disciplined me, and I'm still
under discipline. I'm not allowed to go anywhere
by myself. And, of course, you know about that.
Q. Well, you may be assuming more than is
A. No. You know about the case.
Q. Now, tell me about that. You said a few
years ago. When was this?
A. Four years ago, about four years.
Q. About four years ago. Is this the only
time that the board has disciplined you?
Q. What was the nature of the discipline
other than you can't go anywhere alone?
A. Well, I wasn't supposed to -- I had to
be more careful about how I dealt with each
individual, you know, to be careful about my life.
That was all.
Q. Now, how was this disciplinary decision
reached? Was it at a formal board meeting or
A. Sure. We had a church meeting and then
we had a board meeting.
They did not have a board meeting
Q. What is a church meeting?
A. Well, when that came down, we called
everybody together and --
MR. CHAPLIN: Excuse me one second.
Skip, in light of the fact that the matter that we
are talking about is on a 40J status, I am going
to object to this line of questioning. I think
that this has been put on hold until the case is
MR. UTSEY: I think it's -- it's still
MR. CHAPLIN: Okay. If you want to go
forward with it, that's fine. I just wanted to
put that objection on the table because I think
that the focus of the cases that are -- for the
purpose of the depo today, none of them have to do
with where you are at right now.
MR. UTSEY: I understand that, but I
think under the rules of discovery, unless it's
privileged, I have a right to ask him about it.
MR. CHAPLIN: And I think that the 40J
matter suggests that that is off the docket and
probably not the purpose of today's meeting.
MR. UTSEY: Your objection is on the
MR. CHAPLIN: Good.
Q. There was a church meeting, you said,
with respect to this issue?
Q. When was that held?
A. Sir, I don't have those dates in my
Q. Approximately when was it?
A. It was about four years ago.
Q. And when you say a church meeting, you
mean what? Who attended?
A. Every person on the land at that time
attended except the children. And what took place
was I made the confession of what I had done, and
from then the board took care of it and we made
And I was told to be careful who I
talked to, where I went, and make sure I always
had somebody with me.
Q. Other than your confession, did the
church meeting consist of anyone else saying or
A. Saying or doing anything?
Q. Presumably, when you say you gave a
confession, you stood up and confessed to what you
had done wrong?
Q. Other than that, did anyone else say --
for instance, did people that were in attendance
say here is what I think about it or --
A. Sure, some of them did at that point in
Q. Was the church meeting recorded in any
way, whether minutes were prepared or --
Q. -- audio recordings or anything?
Q. Any documentation that relates to that
Q. Is there a list of who attended that
Q. What was it that you said in your
A. I told them what sin I committed.
Q. Right. And that was it?
A. That was it.
Q. So I committed adultery?
Q. Did you discuss details?
Not very much, no..
Q. And then you said the board dealt with
it from there. Was there a separate board
A. Yes. We had several board meetings
Q. Were minutes prepared with respect to
those board meetings?
A. Not those specific ones, no.
Q. Why not?
A. Because they were church issues. We
weren't dealing with the organizational structure.
We were dealing with church issues, religious
Q. With respect to your discipline from the
board, are there any documents of which you are
aware that relate to that?
Q. All of it was oral?
Q. Were there any recordings made of any of
Q. And you say you are still under
discipline. What do you mean by that?
A. Well, we set up a rule at that time that
nobody would go off the grounds or anywhere by
themself, we would always have somebody with us.
And we all still abide by that. We all abide by
It's just to be a little safer. We are
watching for each other's soul and each other's
way. So whenever anyone goes off the ground or
does anything, they have someone with them.
Q. And that applies to everyone there?
A. Just about, yes. I don't know of
anybody that goes off the ground -- in fact,
nobody is ever told to go off the ground without
somebody else with them.
Q. I understand. Well, then is there
anything in addition to that that you are subject
to, individually, that you would call discipline?
Q. Now, tell me about the instance of
adultery. Who was the person?
A. I don't want to answer that.
Q. I understand you don't want to, but, I
mean, I have a job to do and --
A. Right. It has nothing to do with this
Q. I understand that, but you still have to
A. Tell you what?
Q. The name of the person with whom you
MR. CHAPLIN: Skip, I think that the --
the objection I raised states that the two cases,
or the name would be the plaintiff in that matter
that we brought 40J.
MR. UTSEY: I understand that. But the
rules say that the only way the witness can
refrain from answering the question is if it's the
subject of attorney-client privilege, and it's not
of a privileged matter, so I have a right to ask
about it even though it may or may not be
admissible at trial later on.
Q. So, anyway, back to the question.
THE WITNESS: Do I have to answer that?
MR. CHAPLIN: Yeah. Just give him the
answer. If it continues we are just going
THE WITNESS: What answer am I supposed
MR. CHAPLIN: Give him the name. And if
this continues we are going to have to take a
stronger stance. Go ahead.
Q. With whom did you commit adultery?
A. Stacey was one of them, Stacey Belford.
Q. And there were others?
A. Yes. There was one more.
Q. Who was that?
Laquiela Jones, at that time.
Q. With Ms. Belford, was this a
MR. CHAPLIN: Skip, I'm sorry. We are
going to have to --
MR. UTSEY: Well, if you are going to
file a motion for protective order, then we can
file a motion for protective order and deal with
MR. CHAPLIN: Okay, then we have to deal
with it. Because I thought we were coming here
today to talk about the cases that were on the
docket that we needed to address. And right now
what I feel like is you are pulling a fast one. I
don't think that this is appropriate.
We should not be talking about cases
that are not on the docket at this present time.
They are not even of consideration.
MR. UTSEY: Well, but it's discovery,
and this could lead to discoverable material and
it's a credibility issue.
MR. CHAPLIN: When I prepared him for
his deposition I told him the cases that we would
be discussing, and I did not tell him we would be
discussing the cases where the adultery was an
issue. And, I mean, because I didn't -- because
they are on 40J. They are a 40J motion that we
both agreed to.
MR. UTSEY: I understand that. But, for
the record, I think anything that might tend to
lead to discoverable evidence with respect to
these cases, including issues of credibility and
matters of where he has been disciplined by the
church of which he's a member, are clearly
relevant to those issues.
MR. CHAPLIN: However, and you --
MR. UTSEY: Here is what needs to
happen. If you are going to instruct him not to
answer any further questions on this, then the
rules are pretty clear about your obligation to
file a motion with the Court seeking a protective
order and then we can have this discussion with a
judge and deal with it down the road.
MR. CHAPLIN: That's fine, and I think
MR. UTSEY: If that's what we are going
to do, at least we can move on to another subject,
if that is your intention.
MR. CHAPLIN: Okay. My intention is to
file a motion for protective order.
MR. UTSEY: Okay. So you are going to
instruct him not to answer any further questions
on this topic?
MR. CHAPLIN: That's correct.
MR. UTSEY: Then reserving all rights,
we will move on to another topic.
Q. Other than that episode of being
disciplined by the board, have you ever been
disciplined by the board or any other authority
within the Faith Cathedral Fellowship?
MR. CHAPLIN: And, Skip, can we make
clear what the topic is that I'm instructing him
not to answer questions on? Not on disciplinary
action, but based on the 40J -- cases that are on
MR. UTSEY: If you are instructing him
not to answer, I think you need to make it clear.
MR. CHAPLIN: Okay. I just want to make
sure you and I understand.
MR. UTSEY: What are you instructing him
not to answer?
MR. CHAPLIN: Cases with regards to
plaintiffs whose cases have been placed on a 40J
MR. UTSEY: Okay.
MR. CHAPLIN: Which we did not come here
today to discuss. We are not preparing for trial
for those. Those are on the back burner, so to
Q. Who is the custodian of corporate
records with Faith Cathedral Fellowship?
Q. Is there one person that maintains the
corporate records? If I wanted to get them, who
would be the best person to go to to get them?
A. Probably me.
Q. Does that include minutes of the board
of directors meetings?
Q. Does it include financial records?
A. Yes. I would be the one to authorize
Q. And does that include corporate records,
things that you filed with the state, that sort of
A. We don't file with the state.
Q. Well, to obtain the corporation status.
You had to have had a --
A. I have all of those records, yes.
Q. Now, you said something about
authorizing what, financial expenditures?
A. I didn't say anything about that, that I
Q. Oh, okay. I said something about does
that include financial records, and you said, yes,
because I would have authorized it, or I may have
A. Yeah. I am the one that authorizes what
is spent and what is not spent, yes.
Q. Is there anyone else in Faith Cathedral
Fellowship that has the authority to dictate what
is spent and what is not spent?
They all do, if they want to.
Q. Does anyone else exercise that
A. No. They trust me.
Q. Does the board have to approve your
decisions with respect to expenditures?
Q. Does it, in fact, do that?
A. No. They could if they wanted to, but
they don't need to.
Q. So in terms of what money Faith
Cathedral Fellowship spends, you are the one
making those decisions?
A. Basically, yes.
Q. Well, basically suggests that is not a
yes, or not a complete yes.
Q. It is a yes?
Q. Okay. Have you ever been arrested?
Q. What I'm seeking to find out is any time
you have ever been arrested anywhere, I want to
know about it. You were arrested in Colleton
Q. And charged with what?
THE WITNESS: We are going back at this
MR. CHAPLIN: Right. Uhm --
MR. UTSEY: Well, this is different,
though. This is clearly, under the rules, related
to questions of witness credibility.
I am asking him about the charge. I am
not asking about the details of what happened. I
am asking what he's been arrested for and charged
MR. CHAPLIN: And I would object to that
as asked and answered because I think that you
have that information already. In the discovery,
I think we provided that.
MR. UTSEY: Well, I still have the right
to ask him about it.
MR. CHAPLIN: Well, to your best
knowledge answer the question.
A. I was arrested in Colleton County, two
charges of second-degree sexual assault, which had
to do with the adultery, and one that has to do
with breach of trust, and one that has to do
THE WITNESS: What was that burial
MR. CHAPLIN: Just that's your
testimony. Just go ahead and describe it that
Q. The fourth charge dealt with a burial?
A. Yes. We had to bury a child. And I
don't know what they called it, unlawful burial,
whatever it was. And they have all been disposed
of, which you already know, don't you?
Q. I have some knowledge of it, but I may
not have full knowledge, and that is why I'm going
to ask you --
A. I am sure the court can give you a
record on it.
Q. And you can, too. But, see, I don't get
to testify at trial, and that is why I need to ask
what you understand about this.
What was the disposition of the two
charges for second-degree sexual assault?
A. They were dismissed or put away with or
thrown out. I don't know what word is used.
MR. CHAPLIN: I think you were
appropriate when you said dismissed.
Q. Did you plead guilty or not guilty to
A. I didn't plead either way.
MR. CHAPLIN: They were dismissed.
Q. What was the disposition of the breach
of trust charge?
A. Same thing.
Q. What was the disposition of the burial
A. Same thing.
Q. Did you reach any type of plea agreement
with respect to any of the charges that were
pending in Colleton County?
A. Yeah. They had me agree to a simple
Q. And did you plead guilty to that?
A. I sure did.
Q. Was that one or two charges?
A. Let me see. That was --
MR. CHAPLIN: If you don't recall, just
say you don't recall.
A. I don't recall.
MR. UTSEY: At a certain point -- the
rules are pretty clear that you are not supposed
to be coaching him. I haven't objected to that up
MR. CHAPLIN: Okay. Objection noted.
Q. You pled guilty to simple assault. And
who was the victim of that simple assault?
A. The two young ladies.
Q. Belford and Jones?
Q. Did you plead guilty to anything else?
Q. Have you ever been arrested at any other
time in your life?
A. I was arrested in Savannah many years
ago for bill of trover. That's what they used to
Q. And what did you understand that related
A. I bought an organ.
Q. A what?
A. An organ, and it wasn't any good, and I
didn't pay for it, and until I returned the organ
they arrested me. They either wanted the organ or
the money or me. So they arrested me until I
returned the organ. And I had to go get the
organ, and when the organ was returned the judge
Q. Was that a civil action?
A. I don't really know. I just know the
sheriff came out.
Q. Do you know whether you ended up
pleading guilty or not guilty?
A. I didn't plead nothing. When the organ
was returned, they just turned me loose.
Q. And were all charges dismissed?
A. If there were any charges at all.
Q. So, in other words, you didn't have to
satisfy any criminal penalty, whether it be
incarceration or fine or anything like that?
Q. What year was that, approximately?
A. I don't recall. I can't --
Q. When were you in Savannah?
A. It all was around 25 years ago. It
might have been 30 years ago, somewhere along in
there. That was even before I even moved to
Savannah, so it might have been 32 years ago.
Q. Have you ever been arrested at any other
times in your life?
A. Yes. I was arrested one time in
Q. What was that all about?
A. What did they charge me with? Do you
know what they -- I don't know what --
MR. CHAPLIN: Can I take it in your
MR. UTSEY: Yes.
(A recess was taken.)
Q. I was asking you about the arrest in
Q. Do you remember what the charge was?
A. I was thinking -- I think they called it
outrage and public decency.
Q. And did you understand what the
circumstances were that led to that charge?
Q. What was that?
A. A little girl said I made a gesture at
Q. And what happened with that charge?
A. They were dismissed.
Q. Did you plead guilty, not guilty?
A. It didn't even go to court.
Q. But did you ever have to file a plea?
Q. Did you pay a fine or anything like
A. No, just dismissed and told me it was
Q. And where was that in Oklahoma?
Q. And how long ago did that happen,
A. 45 years.
Q. Oh, okay. It's been a long time?
MR. CHAPLIN: How many years? I'm
sorry. I didn't hear that.
THE WITNESS: 45. At least 45, I would
Q. Other than the arrest in Oklahoma that
we just discussed, Savannah that we previously
discussed and Colleton County that we have
previously discussed, have you ever been arrested?
Q. That is a no?
A. That's it.
Q. I am trying to make sure your answer is
clear for the record.
A. No. I wasn't arrested anyplace else.
Q. Other than the one instance of
discipline by the board of Faith Cathedral
Fellowship, have you ever been disciplined by any
other church with which you have been affiliated?
Q. Have you ever been treated -- these are
standard questions. Have you ever been treated
for any type of substance abuse?
Q. Or addiction?
Q. Have you ever been treated for any sort
of mental or emotional problems?
Q. Do you have a family doctor?
Q. Do you get medical treatment at all?
Q. When is the last time you received
medical treatment? Never?
Q. Dental work?
Q. Do you have a dentist locally?
Q. Who is that?
A. Dr. Rhoades.
Q. Have you ever seen any other health care
provider other than Dr. Rhoades?
Q. Have you ever been involuntarily
committed to any type of institution?
Q. Have you ever been a party to any civil
action other than those initiated by my clients?
Q. Tell me about those.
A. We had a farm in Alabama, and a fellow
tried to take it from us that was living on it,
and it was resolved.
Q. Where was that?
A. Let's see. What county was that in? It
was down near Auburn. I can't think exactly where
Q. And you said we had a farm. Who is
A. Someone gave the church a farm, and we
let somebody live on it, and he wanted us to sign
it over to him because he thought that we --
Q. And so --
A. So he sued us.
Q. He sued you?
Q. He sued the ministry?
Q. And it was resolved how?
A. The judge made us -- we gave him back
his $25,000 that he gave, and then put him off the
land and we got the farm back.
Q. So it did end up going to court?
A. Yes. It went to court.
Q. When was this?
A. I don't remember the dates.
A. Five, six, seven, eight years ago.
Q. Does the church still own that farm?
Q. What happened to it?
A. We sold it.
Q. When was that?
A. About the same time.
Q. To the same individual or to someone
A. No. We sold it to somebody else.
Q. Is that the only other time that you
have been involved in a civil lawsuit?
Q. Have you ever been involved in any
litigation in probate court?
Q. Have you ever been involved in any sort
of quasi-judicial administrative actions?
Q. How does Overcomer Ministries -- what
income does it have?
A. I'm not sure if I understand your
Q. Well, does Overcomer Ministries have
income? Does it have money that comes into it?
A. Yes. People give us offerings.
Q. Does it have any other sources of
Q. And, generally speaking -- I have got
some computer printouts that we will talk about in
a moment that your attorney has turned over.
But, generally speaking, what categories
of expenditures does Overcomer Ministries have?
What does it spend its money on?
A. Radio broadcasting.
Q. Anything else?
A. And maintaining of the facilities up
there on the farm. That's it.
Q. How long have you been in the radio
A. All my life.
Q. And so the entire time that Faith
Cathedral Fellowship has been in existence, one of
the expenditures it has had has been radio?
A. Yeah, the biggest ones, yes.
Q. And what type of radio?
A. All kinds. What is on the radio? I
mean, what do you mean by that? I don't
understand the question.
Q. I mean, is it commercial radio,
A. No, no. We are not commercial at all.
Nothing is commercial.
Q. I understood something about shortwave
radio that I know very little about there.
A. Shortwave radio is like any other radio.
You buy time on the stations and you pay them for
the time that you broadcast on them, and that is
what we do.
We buy time from stations in America and
we buy shortwave time in different parts of the
world. We pay for satellites, any forms that get
the signal into the stations, and that is what we
Q. I guess that is what I meant. When I
said commercial radio, would it be on AM bands or
A. AM, FM, shortwave, Internet, satellite,
whatever source that they use. We use all of
Q. So you said satellite, for example. I
understand there is like XM radio or Sirius radio?
A. No. Satellite sends a signal to other
parts of the world, or any part of the world. It
uses satellite to send a signal.
Q. I see. And so you pay whoever owns the
satellite or manages the satellite?
A. We pay many stations. We pay people who
own the satellite. You have to pay them for it,
Q. Same with the Internet?
Q. Now, is there documentation related to
what your charges are for that air time?
A. We have the records of every dime ever
spent, every record to every station anyplace in
the world, yes.
Q. So, in other words, if you had received
an invoice from Station X for the air time, would
you have that?
A. We have the invoices, we have the
canceled checks, the payments. They are all paid.
Q. I noticed in the -- and I'm sort of
jumping ahead of myself, but these account
printouts that your attorney provided, one of the
line item expenses is radio. And, as you said,
it's probably the largest expenditure?
Q. Under that line item of radio, is there
anything included other than the air time itself
that you purchase?
A. Well, there are things that have to do
with the signal satellites and the air time you
purchase and the facilities you use, yes. It's
all included in the --
Q. That is what I'm driving at. What all
is under that heading of radio?
A. I just explained it to you. We have
satellite, Internet, and we pay the station for
the time. We pay the people who provide the
satellites. We have to pay them. And we have to
pay for the Internet serving, the T-1 lines and
things like that.
Q. Are there any other aspects of the radio
broadcast that fall under that expense category on
A. Not as far as air time, no.
Q. For example, do you have a studio, or do
you rent a studio or what?
A. We have a place. On our farm we have
our own radio facilities. We have our own
Q. And when you purchased that equipment,
how is that expenditure handled?
A. It's probably listed down some way.
Either computer or radio or some way it's listed.
Q. That is what I'm trying to figure out.
I am trying to break down these categories on your
expense list, and I'm wondering if radio includes,
for example, any equipment?
A. We could go into radio and we could tell
where every dime went, whether it went for the
computers in the radio room or whether it went for
the printing of -- yes, we could.
Q. How would you do that?
A. How do we do what?
Q. How would you go into it to find that
A. Well, the computer has the categories.
The bookkeeping has categories. If we spend
$1,000 for radio, and then you went to the
category and say this was spent for the computer
room, and this was spent for the satellite uplink,
and this was spent for the --
MR. UTSEY: Okay. Well, let me go ahead
and mark this document as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 1 was marked
Q. For the record, Exhibit 1 is a group of
documents which appear to be computer printouts
which your attorney furnished to me.
The dates appear to range from the year
19 -- it's hard to read some of them because they
were faxed -- 1992, I believe, through 2004. Can
you identify that?
Q. What is it?
A. It's our bookkeeping record.
Q. A printout of the bookkeeping record?
Q. Do you know what type of software you
use to maintain these records?
A. On this one right here we might have
used -- we have changed them often. We might have
used Money Accounts on this one, and now we have
QuickBooks, I think. I would have to go back and
check and see which one.
Q. So that if you were to -- let's don't
talk too much about the printout itself, but let's
talk about what is on the computer.
If you were to pull up a screen to see,
for example --
A. It would be that.
Q. January 1 through December 31, 2004,
You would have something that looks like that
A. That is the report that would come out
from the screen.
Q. And then if I wanted to see an
itemization under an expense category --
A. No problem.
Q. -- what would you do, click on that
A. Yeah, click on it and print it out.
Q. Are those itemizations per category
contained within Exhibit 1?
A. This is the report. I don't know what
you are asking me on that one.
Q. Let's look at the top page, which is
January 1 through December 31, 2004.
Q. The first expense item on that list is
A. Right. That has to do with the farm.
We could tell you what we spent for the animals.
That is expense. That is what we pay for the
animals, or feed or something like that.
Q. Right. So let's say -- and I'm just
using this one as an example to help understand
how this is formatted in the computer.
I see that for the total year $12,100
was spent on animals, correct?
Q. And if I wanted to know, well, was that
purchasing feed or was that --
Q. -- veterinary care, or whatever the
expenditures might have been, what would I do from
this page to find that out?
A. You would punch up animals and we would
search out the categories. It would tell you what
was spent for it.
Q. Can you generate a printout or a report
of that category?
A. Yes, I'm pretty sure.
Q. Does Exhibit 1 contain that type of
printout, or is it just the overall printout of
A. This is the report that we asked for.
We could ask for a report on something else and
get a report on it.
Q. So if, for example --
A. For instance, I have right here some
reports that she pulled out this morning that have
to do with certain things. In fact, every one of
those people right there, I have a report of
what -- of their records right there.
Q. You have them with you?
A. Yeah, but I am not going to give them to
you right now.
Q. Well, why not?
A. Because they are for my benefit. If the
time comes and we need them, we can give you that
Q. Okay. The time will probably come
either today or later. I don't know.
Q. When we started this discussion I was
asking you about radio. What you are telling me
is that if we needed to see where each penny was
spent on --
A. Every dime, every check.
Q. You could generate reports for that?
Q. Okay, good. Who is the individual that
maintains the documentation in the computer
program? Is that Teresa?
MR. UTSEY: Are those notes or are
MR. CHAPLIN: No. You know what, you
can have these.
MR. UTSEY: -- actual printouts?
MR. CHAPLIN: No. These are notes,
personal notes. And, I mean, we could call this
privileged, but it's nothing that we are going to
try to hide.
THE WITNESS: No.
MR. UTSEY: We will get to it in a
MR. CHAPLIN: Okay, fine. There is no
problem with that.
THE WITNESS: She just wanted to inform
me on that.
MR. CHAPLIN: I understand. That is
going to come up anyway, and I think we should be
forthright with that. Thanks for bringing that.
Q. Does Faith Cathedral Fellowship have a
policy with respect to the return of any offerings
Q. In the past, has Faith Cathedral
Fellowship ever returned some or all of anyone's
donations or offerings?
Q. How were the decisions made to do that?
A. I make the decision.
Q. And on how many occasions have you done
A. Oh, eight or ten.
Q. Did any of them involve individuals
other than people who have brought these lawsuits
and the man in Alabama who the judge told you to
return his $25,000?
A. I sent money back to a lot of people,
and I've refused a lot of offerings at times.
Q. Under what circumstances have you
returned some or all of the person's offerings?
A. When I felt like they weren't really
Q. What do you mean?
A. Well, they would give you some money,
and I felt like they weren't giving an offering,
they were trying to buy a service or something,
and I don't sell any service. I wouldn't receive
Q. Are there any other reasons that you
have ever returned an offering?
A. No. The only time I have returned an
offering is when people who came and lived with us
and then they left. I would never send anybody
away empty. I would always make sure they had
Some came with nothing and I sent them
away with some offering. Because I felt like if
they no longer wanted to live under our status,
and they were going back out there, I wouldn't
send them out without some money, and I didn't do
Q. In any of those instances have your
decisions been approved by or otherwise reviewed
by the board of directors or anyone else?
A. Sure, every one of them.
Q. So would there be board meeting minutes?
A. No. We just -- like I say, we are very
open up there. We discuss all the things all the
time, and they all know what goes on and what
happens and how it happens.
Q. So that would be more of an informal
discussion than a meeting?
Q. I notice that in some years you have got
a net income and some years you have a net loss.
In those years where you have a net loss, how do
you make up for the shortcoming?
A. It's what was left over from the
Q. Just used as retained earnings?
Q. And so in those years where you have net
income, you just retained those earnings to offset
any future losses?
A. All the offerings come in and go into an
account. Some years you took in more than others
and other years you didn't take any. It's just
like a monthly thing.
Some months you take in more than you
paid out, and other months you don't take as much
in as you pay out.
Q. So it balances out in the long run?
Q. When you say it comes into one account,
is that a bank account?
Q. And what bank would that be?
A. Right now it's Walterboro bank.
Q. Bank of Walterboro?
A. Yes. There was Enterprise Bank.
Q. How long have you been with Bank of
A. Four or five years.
Q. And the account is listed under what
A. Faith Cathedral.
Q. Is your name also on the account?
Q. Why is that?
A. Because I'm the one that exercises the
business. I am the one authorized by the board
and the corporation to handle the business.
Q. So you write the checks, or sign the
checks at least?
A. I sign the checks and my wife signs the
Q. How many different accounts do you have
with the Bank of Walterboro?
A. We have a savings accounts, we have a
checking account, we have a CD.
Q. And do you have accounts, at present,
with any other banks?
Q. What other type accounts?
A. We have a money market account with
Q. Where is that?
A. It's in Summerville.
Q. How long have you been doing business
A. Maybe two years.
Q. Any other accounts with Tidelands?
Q. Any other accounts with any other banks?
Q. Do you have any investment accounts?
A. With those banks.
Q. Those same banks?
Q. What type of investment accounts?
A. Tidelands Bank is the money market
account. We have a CD with Walterboro. That is
Q. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. I meant any type
of investment account where you would invest in
securities or that sort of thing?
Q. How about you personally? Do you have
any bank accounts?
Q. And I think you told me earlier that you
don't draw a salary or any other pay from Faith
Cathedral Fellowship, is that correct?
Q. Is that correct?
Q. Do you receive income from any other
Q. How do you provide for your day-to-day
needs in terms of a place to live and groceries
A. The church provides me with a house and
food and clothing.
Q. Anything else?
A. That's all I need. I don't even need
Q. And the house it provides, is it on what
you have been describing as the farm?
A. Yes. It's on our farm. It's an old
house that they tore down and rebuilt me a little
Q. Just so the record is clear, we have
talked about the farm several times. Just to make
sure, can you state for the record what you have
been referring to when you talk about the farm?
A. We have -- our Faith Cathedral
Fellowship runs a community farm where we have
people who live, just like you would in a
monastery, or people have given up their personal
ambitions to live together as Christians, and we
have all things in common, like is spoken of in
the scriptures, and that is what we do.
Q. And it's located where?
A. In Canadys.
Q. How large is the farm?
A. It's about one hundred and, oh, twenty
to thirty acres.
Q. And what sort of structures are on the
A. We have mobile homes. We have a
tabernacle. We have a dining hall. We have farm
barns and equipment. It's a farm. It's a regular
organically type farm. We grow our own food, and
we live together like a regular family, and no one
compelled to stay or no one is invited to come.
Q. Now, other folks who live on the farm --
and I don't say other folks. I am talking about
your expenses being paid by Faith Cathedral
Fellowship. How about the expenses of the farm
A. Everything is paid by the ministry.
Q. So anyone who lives there, insofar as
their food, their housing or their clothing --
A. Is all provided by the community.
Q. -- is paid for by the community? Now,
are there requirements that if you are going to
live there that you have to give up anything?
A. No. This is the way we live. If they
want to come here, they understand that when they
come they put whatever they have into the
Q. That is what I'm asking.
A. Because that is what sustains them,
their time, their work, their effort.
Q. Let's say that somebody wants to join
that community --
A. You can't join us.
Q. When I say join, I guess move to the
community, move to the farm.
A. We bring them there for a couple of
days, for a week or two and visit, and then see if
they can live with us, that we can live with
them. We explain to them how we live here. And
if they agree to it, and they all do, then they
can live with us.
Q. And if that hypothetical person owns a
house, has a bank account, an automobile, can they
keep those things in their personal name?
A. Not and live with us, no.
Q. So if they choose to live with you, what
do they do with those things?
A. They donate it all to the church, or
somebody else, get rid of it. I had a lady some
time ago that came in from Arkansas, and another
man just moved in from Augusta, and he had a
house, and he said, well, what should I do. I
said, give it to -- what do you want to do with
it? I said, do you have children? He said, yes.
I said, just give it to the children, so he gave
it to the children. The woman in Arkansas, she
gave it to her children.
Q. So, basically, they need to divest
themselves of those possessions to be consistent
with the philosophy of --
A. If they want to live with us, yes.
Q. I had asked you a little bit about
returning of donations to anybody a few minutes
Have there ever been instances where
somebody has donated, say, a house or other
property to Faith Cathedral Fellowship and then
decided that they didn't want to continue living
on the farm?
Q. In those instances, have you ever
returned their property to them?
A. I didn't have their property. I had
their money, but not their property.
Q. What happens when someone donates
property to Faith Cathedral Fellowship?
A. We sell it.
Q. And you keep the proceeds?
A. I haven't had too many instances like
Q. Did any of those incidents involve any
of my clients?
A. That had property?
A. That they bought?
Q. Or that you sold?
A. No, not that I know that they had
property that they donated to us, no.
Q. Did any of them own property that they
sold and then gave the proceeds of the sale to
Faith Cathedral Fellowship?
A. Yes. In fact, every one of them you
have there, I am sure they had resources, and when
they came they sold and brought us the money, or
gave us the money. And some gave us the money
before they even came.
You have one right there. Mr. Tim
Butler was in debt to the IRS and to the State of
Ohio because he wouldn't pay taxes. He's a
patriot. So when he came here, for six months I
took the money from him that he worked and then I
paid his debts for him. I paid his debt. He
don't record that, but we paid his debt.
Just like the General, when we paid his
debt, because we don't believe in having debt.
None of our people have debt. So if they come and
they have debt, we try to get them out of debt and
we help them get out of debt.
And if they are able to work, we let
them work until they -- and then when Tim Butler
left, not only did we pay his debt, we gave him
$30,000 cash. Plus we gave him a motor that we
paid for, $12,000.
And we gave him -- he backed up his
truck and loaded up a pile of food to take with
him. So these are things that we gave back, sure,
because -- yes..
Q. I am going to get to each one of them
individually in a minute, so I don't want you to
have to tell me twice.
But I noticed on Exhibit 1 that one of
the line items is return offering. What is that?
A. I mean, sometimes people give us an
offering and then after awhile the situation
develops where I didn't believe that it was an
offering and I return it back to them.
Q. Does that include circumstances like you
were just describing with Mr. Butler when he --
Q. Where would those be documented on here?
A. Where would what be documented? It
might be under that category. I would have to go
home and look under the category.
Q. I am curious about any instances where
an individual has joined your community but then
left and you have given them any portion of their
A. We have done that, yes.
Q. And what I'm curious about is, looking
at Exhibit 1, under which of these expense
A. It might be under return. Well, that is
not enough. It would probably be under their own
name or something.
This is the general expense report here.
This is not an individual report. If you want a
report, we can get a report for each one of those
Q. Okay. Well, I do see that their are
some names, for example, on the first page of
Exhibit 1, and maybe that will help explain things
for me. I see Edward Fernandez children, or
A. We have child for -- he has a child
support obligation. We pay child support or give
him the money to pay it.
Q. And that is consistent with your policy
of not having debt for any of your --
A. Right. Anybody who lives with us, if
they have obligations we take care of them. We
work together. Just for instance, he takes care
of our dairy farm up there, and so we just -- if
anybody has any debt, we take care of it.
Q. I understand. Then I see Mueller is one
person on here.
A. Who is that?
A. He's not with us no more.
Q. Well, there is a line item --
A. Yeah, but what happened, he turned in
$12,000 that he had for child support. That is
what he did. And we kept the $12,000 and we went
to the state of Michigan and we made a deal to pay
his child support off because he owed them child
support, and we took his money and we paid his
child support. He turned it in to us and then we
took it and paid the child support.
Q. So the line item for $13,652 in 2004
would have been the payment of the child support?
Q. What is the personal line item on this?
A. That is probably things that I get for
me personally or my wife, family.
Q. Which it's not a lot of money,
obviously, but that is like clothing and whatnot?
Q. Anything else that would be under that
Q. I see there is a line item for Vernelle
A. Sister Bush used to live there with us.
She is dead now. She just died.
Q. Why would --
A. We have certain people who live with us
that they have an income, and we keep a separate
record for every person's income that they turn
in, and she was one of them.
Q. When you say income, what do you mean?
A. They got checks, Social Security checks,
retirement checks, people who got income. There
are some people that come there that are retired
and they turn in their income.
Q. So that's why you would be getting, for
example, $914 for several months from Vernelle
Bush? I imagine it's Social Security.
A. Her Social Security every month was
right around $900 for a long time, yes.
Q. Why would there be an expense for
A. Because she might want something. She
might want something and we buy it for her.
Q. How about -- I see under the income side
A. Yes. He's been on the farm for 30
Q. And what income --
A. He gives his retirement funds.
Q. How about Lois Anderson?
A. She gives her Social Security check.
Q. Peter Scott?
A. Peter Scott, he doesn't work anymore,
but when he did work he turned in his money.
Q. He worked outside of the community?
A. Yes. We have people who work sometimes
out of the community.
Q. This says Rios Tony, or maybe it's Tony
A. He's not with us anymore.
Q. What income did you have from him?
A. He had support for children that was
given to him.
Q. Larivee Dennis?
A. Dennis Larivee.
Q. Dennis Larivee. I'm sorry. What income
did -- actually, it's a negative income.
A. He doesn't have any income anymore. He
used to, but he doesn't anymore.
Q. WQIZ is listed as an income?
A. Yes. We used to own WQIZ radio.
Q. And the income would be what?
A. We didn't get no income from WQIZ, that
I know of.
Q. I am looking at the second page of
Exhibit 1. It reflects in June of 2003 $199,660.
A. Oh, we sold the station. We sold the
Q. That is what I meant.
A. Yeah, the income.
Q. That was the proceeds of the sale?
Q. There is a line item under the income
portion that says outside work. Is that the
people who work outside of the farm?
Q. And their income is accounted there, is
A. Right. In other words, they work
outside, and they bring their paychecks back home
and they give it to the church.
Q. Do you remember a gentleman named Geoff
A. Yes. He used to live with us for quite
awhile and he moved back to Michigan.
Q. What expenditures would have been
incurred on his behalf?
A. I would have to go check the records.
Q. You can't tell from looking at Exhibit
A. No. He -- how much? It couldn't have
been too much.
Q. A couple of hundred dollars a month for
several months. I'm looking at Page 32, which is
2002. I see his name on it.
A. I would have to go back. Geoff has been
gone for quite awhile in Houston. I don't think
we paid child support for him.
Q. I see it also in 2001.
A. He has been gone for about four years,
Q. And in 2000. How about Gary Hinton?
A. Gary Hinton was a young man who came
here. He was in debt. And, again, our brothers
went out with the work and we took our money and
paid him out of debt. That was one of the fellows
that came with nothing and went away with $6,000.
Q. Terry Peters?
A. Gary Peters?
Q. Terry Peters.
A. Oh, Terry Peters. He still is with us.
Q. What expenditures would you be incurring
A. Whatever he needs. It might have been
some money we sent to his wife, for his family.
I'm not sure exactly of the expense.
Q. Now, looking at the income portion of
these reports, there is one line item for
offerings, and then just beside that is one for
mail. What does that mean?
A. That is offerings, too.
Q. That is what I was wondering.
A. Well, we have offerings that come in
through the mail and offerings that people just
give to us, like you do with contributions.
Q. So mail would be mail receipts of
Q. There is a line item for checks
returned. What does that mean?
A. Checks returned? I can't tell you. I
am sure it might be something we sent back to
people, or refused or whatever.
Q. An offering you refused?
A. Yes. Or sometimes they give us a check
and it would bounce, so we would have to send it
back. And so you show in the record that it's not
in the income anymore.
Q. One item, I'm looking here specifically
at the 2001 summary report, it says left
A. Yes, people that left the community, we
would give them some money.
Q. And that would go under that line item?
A. Yes. I'm pretty sure you could find it
under that line item.
Q. I notice that there are legal expenses
that are incurred periodically. For what would
the Faith Cathedral Fellowship be incurring legal
A. The only legal expense we have is when
we hired Mathias Chaplin and -- our friend right
Q. Right. And for what purpose, this
A. Yes. No, not this one. We had the
previous lawsuit, the criminal charges.
Q. The criminal charges as well?
Q. And they are not large amounts. But
going back in time, we have legal from time to
time as a recurring expense, and it might only be
a couple of hundred dollars here and there, and
I'm just curious what type of legal work that
Faith Cathedral Fellowship would be needing?
A. We had the lawyer over in Alabama and we
had Paul, but Paul didn't get much. There can't
be too much legal expense because we didn't have
any other legal expense, that I know of. We had
to pay the lawyer in Alabama, and I think it was
$2,000 and that was it.
Q. Did Faith Cathedral Fellowship pay for
the expense of defending you in the criminal
Q. What year was that?
A. That was four years ago.
Q. Well, I see in the year 2001 that there
were legal expenses incurred of over $130,000.
A. That is when we started the criminal
Q. And then in 2002 you had legal expenses
of over $340,000?
A. Because we had to put up the bond.
A. For the same charge. You have to put up
Q. Did they get reimbursed to you at some
Q. And that would be reflected on the
Q. How much was the bond, do you recall?
A. Had a cash bond of $200,000 and we had
a -- what do you call it, a surety bond?
Q. Surety bond?
A. Yeah, surety bond. The total bond was
Q. And do you know where that would be
represented on the income side of the balance
sheet here? Would that be under reimbursements?
A. I don't really know.
Q. Now, with respect to my clients, I know
from the discovery responses I received from your
attorney that, at least insofar as Butler, Duval,
Hartley and Lindsey, you have stated that you have
given them some money when they left the
Q. Are those payments reflected on any of
the documents that make up Exhibit 1 right there?
A. I am sure they are someplace in here
that they were given out. That is where we got
the records from right there. There is somewhere
that we could produce the record of each one of
those persons, the money given back to them.
Q. We are just not positive, sitting here
today, which one of the expense categories those
would fit under?
A. No. I'm not sure. Probably return
Q. Like, you know, we have left community
is one item. Return offering is another item.
A. I will tell you this, that if you need
those records, we can get them for each
individual. We can print out a record for each
one of them.
Q. Okay. Now, let's talk individually
about some of these clients, the Allabys.
A. The Allabys never lived here with us.
Q. Okay. I just want to talk generally
about each one of them. We will take them one at
a time and your relationship with them.
When did you first become acquainted
A. As far as dates, I can't give you a
date. The Allabys go way back maybe seven, eight,
ten years ago.
Q. Tell me that story, as you recall.
A. The story was they moved to a community
in Canada that had a fellowship with us, or
affiliated with us. I never owned it. I had
nothing to do with it. It was just a satellite
group that had a fellowship with us.
And they moved out there, and they put
their money out there, and then they left. And
when they left those people up there, whoever the
two men up there who handled it, they never gave
me the money. It wasn't given to us and they
never lived here with us.
Q. Did Faith Cathedral Fellowship ever
receive any of the money that the Allabys donated?
A. Yeah, before they moved to the
community, yes. They used to send money here like
hundreds of people do. We have -- people send
money all the time.
Q. So they donate through the mail?
Q. And do you have any idea how much they
A. The Allabys gave, between 1995 and 1999,
Q. What were the dates again?
A. The dates were between 1995 and 1999.
That is what they gave to us here. What they gave
up there, I have no idea.
Q. Do you know whether that is U.S. dollars
or Canadian dollars?
A. That was U.S. dollars.
Q. I had a document that you-all produced
that broke it down between Canadian and U.S. I
think I have an extra copy, actually.
MR. UTSEY: Make this Exhibit 2.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2 was marked
MR. CHAPLIN: May I see that?
MR. UTSEY: Yes.
MR. CHAPLIN: Yeah. You have some
Canadian money there, too.
A. When we got Canadian money we put it in
the bank. We bank deposited it and they send us
how much it is in U.S. currency. After they run
it through, they send back to us what it's worth
in U.S. currency. That is what we do.
Q. That is what I want you to clarify.
This Exhibit 2 here, which is a document I
received from your attorneys, has both Canadian
and U.S. dollars.
It's your belief that once you convert
that all to U.S. dollars the amount is $3,976?
Q. Now, have you ever seen this document,
Exhibit 2, before?
A. No, I don't think so.
Q. Do you know anything about who prepared
A. Probably Sister Margaret.
A. Yeah. She might have done that because
she could have went in and got the records.
Q. Is there any reason for to you believe
that that is anything other than accurate?
A. No, no. When it comes in, Margaret will
write them down and then she will deposit it, and
then the bank tells us what it's worth in U.S.
dollars and then we put that into our records.
Q. Now, there is no indication on Exhibit 2
that any money was ever refunded to or returned
A. Not from us, no.
Q. I mean, is that correct?
Q. Faith Cathedral Fellowship did not give
the Allabys any money?
Q. Now, do you know whether the Allabys
liquidated any assets and donated any money when
A. Not to me.
Q. Hang on a minute. I am not trying to be
rude, but it's going to make her job really hard
if we are both talking at the same time.
Do you know if the Allabys liquidated
any assets and donated any money from the sale of
those assets when they moved into the Canadian
A. I don't know.
Q. With respect to that Canadian community,
what was it called?
A. Oh, I don't know if they had a special
name at all.
Q. What did you refer to it as, the
Q. Where was it located?
A. Saskatchewan. It's still there. As far
as I know the men still have the farm.
Q. Who are the men that have that
A. The two men that -- we bought the farm,
I can tell you that much. But those two men, the
Canadian government would not let a U.S. citizen
own the land, and these two men were supposed to
be our friends, so we put them on and -- I can't
think of their names right now.
Q. So the purchase price for the farm was
actually paid by Faith Cathedral Fellowship?
Q. How much was it?
A. $15,000, I believe it was, or
Q. And you said that that community had a
fellowship with --
A. Just a fellowship with us.
Q. What does that mean?
A. That means they believe what we believe
and supported us and we supported them.
Q. Were the expenses --
A. No. They took care of everything up
MR. CHAPLIN: Ssshhh. Let him finish
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
MR. CHAPLIN: Sorry about that. I
didn't mean to ssshhh you like a child. I am just
trying to make the statement and finish up because
I'm ready for lunch.
Q. Were any of the expenses of the Canadian
community reflected on the books of Faith
Q. And was any of the income from the
Canadian community on the books?
A. There was none.
Q. There was no income?
Q. How many people resided up there?
A. Off and on there might have been three
or four, five or six.
Q. Now, in respect to the farm here in
South Carolina, or the community here, are there
times that in your broadcast, for example, or your
written word that you encourage people to become
members of the community?
A. Absolutely not, no.
Q. How do people learn that you have this
A. They can go on our Internet site. I
talk about the farm. I talk about our community.
People come by and see us. People come by to
Q. When you talk about it, what do you say?
A. I just tell them we are at the farm,
that we live here. I use the scriptural approach
where we live like the scriptures did in the Book
of Acts. You-all have all things common. Nobody
owes anybody anything.
I like to tell them about the effect of
living without debt. And that is something that
you can say to somebody, 75 people live here and
nobody owes anybody money. We are all out of
debt. That is an unusual situation.
Q. Do you explain that people are welcome
to join the community?
A. No, no. There is nothing to join. I
tell them straight out, you can't join this
Q. Well, join not in a membership sense,
but join as in a physical sense?
A. No. I never invite anybody to do that.
Q. How do people determine that they can
give up things and move to the community?
A. They may come for a visit. They may say
can I come and visit you, or they come to
service. Then they will say to me, well, how can
I be here? And I say, well, you really can't. I
say, we just don't have -- we have nothing to
And then if they persist they would like
to live like that, then I will let them come for a
visit. Two or three times they come, and if then
they determine they want to abide by the
situation, if they want to do what they want to
do, give up everything, then they do it, and they
come with that understanding.
Q. So you have some conversation at that
stage of what would be necessary for them to move
A. Yeah. If they keep implying that they
would like to live with us I say, do you
understand how we live here? This is how we live.
Do you want to do that?
Q. Now, at your website, or anything else
that you publish, whether it's broadcast-wise or
written-wise or anything, have you ever described
the farm in Saskatchewan?
A. No. I did when we were affiliated with
them, when they had a fellowship with us, yes.
Q. Oh, you no longer have a fellowship with
A. No. They pulled away from us about four
or five years ago.
Q. What were the circumstances of that?
A. I guess the criminal case. Tim Butler
can probably tell you more about that.
Q. Was there anything written by them or
A. We had no legal ties whatsoever.
Q. I understand. But, I mean, did somebody
write you a letter, for example, saying we would
like to sever our fellowship?
A. Yeah. One of the gentlemen up there
just called me one day and said we are not going
to have anything more to do with you, and that was
the last I heard from him.
Q. And you are thinking that was about four
Q. Prior to that, how long had they been in
fellowship with Faith Cathedral?
A. Two or three years.
Q. During that two- or three-year period,
is that when you would have talked about that farm
and your Internet broadcast?
A. I talk about different communities that
fellowship with us, even now, in different parts.
We have one group of people up there in North
Carolina who are pastors. We have a group of
people over there in Kentucky. We have a group of
people out in Oklahoma.
And just like a church. I would say we
have fellowship over there. If you want to attend
church there, you may do that. It's just like you
advertise services in different locations around
Q. Right. But I began this discussion when
we started talking about the Allabys and the fact
that they moved to the farm in Saskatchewan.
A. That was their desire.
Q. But during the period when they moved
there, were Faith Cathedral Fellowship and that
farm in fellowship together?
Q. And during that period was Faith
Cathedral Fellowship discussing the farm in
Saskatchewan on its website and in another --
A. We have mentioned that we have a
fellowship up in Saskatchewan, sure. That is how
they found out about it.
Q. And did you describe what the farm was
like up there and what the principles were behind
Q. You didn't say, like you did here, that
people give up everything to live here and --
Q. What did you say?
A. I just told them if they want to visit,
they can go visit. That is what the Allabys did,
as far as I know. They went out there to visit
and decided they wanted to live out there.
Q. Do you know how long they stayed there?
A. Maybe a year, year and a half. I don't
know. One day they left and they were gone.
Q. Do you know why they left?
A. I guess they didn't want to live there
Q. But did you know anything more about
A. They probably didn't like the situation.
Q. What situation?
A. Whatever situation, how we were living
there, the situation with the people.
Q. I understand. But I am not asking you
A. There was no specific thing that I know
Q. That is what I'm asking, whether you
knew of any specific reason.
Q. Do you know whether the individuals who
were running the farm in Saskatchewan returned any
money to the Allabys?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Have you had any contact with the
Allabys since they severed their ties with that
Q. Have you ever offered to reimburse or
return any money to the Allabys?
Q. Have they ever asked you to?
Q. So it's just never been something you
had to decide whether to do or not to do? Is that
fair to say?
A. When they left, they left.
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 3 was marked
Q. Let's talk about the Butlers now.
MR. CHAPLIN: Can I interrupt one
MR. UTSEY: Yes.
MR. CHAPLIN: When do you think we are
going to have lunch? Because I have quite a few
questions that I want to follow up with as well.
MR. UTSEY: Well, we have to go through
all the plaintiffs, so it's going to be a little
while. I didn't know if you wanted to push
through and then take a lunch break, or go ahead
and take a lunch break and -- I don't care one way
or the other.
MR. CHAPLIN: Well, can we just think
about it and kind of set something up? I need to
return a few messages. I would like to have some
lunch. But I just wanted to work with you. I
don't want to break your flow here.
MR. UTSEY: It doesn't matter to me. I
mean, if you want to take a lunch break now, we
can take a lunch break now and then resume until
we finish, or we can keep going for a little while
and then take a lunch break. I'm flexible.
MR. CHAPLIN: Because the depositions we
have after him, they are on standby. They know
they need to be here today.
MR. UTSEY: Right.
MR. CHAPLIN: So if we could take a
break now, that would be great. Until when? I
mean, since you are at a different climate, or a
different person. You are getting ready to move
to a different person now, right?
MR. UTSEY: Yes. It's a good time. We
will take a break and go off the record.
(Lunch recess taken.)
Q. I told you I was going to ask about what
you did at lunch and who you saw. I want you to
A. I saw my wife and I saw Mr. Landry.
Q. Did you have any conversations with
anyone concerning the deposition?
A. Yeah. We talked a little bit about the
Q. Who did you discuss that with?
A. My wife.
Q. Did you learn any additional information
aside from what you and I have already discussed?
A. Only that we can get you all the records
that you need, that has to be done.
Q. Did you determine what type of software
program is used for that?
A. Money Count.
Q. Money Count?
A. No, QuickBooks.
MR. CHAPLIN: She is in the lobby now,
by the way.
MR. UTSEY: Yeah. I met her a minute
MR. CHAPLIN: Okay. So we don't have
any lag time.
MR. UTSEY: Okay, good.
Q. Did you learn any other information in
your conversation with her?
Q. Did anyone give you any suggestions
about how to answer any questions for the
remainder of your deposition?
A. No. I guess that would have been me
giving them suggestions.
Q. Well, I can ask them about that.
A. Yeah, sure.
Q. Okay. We have talked about the Allabys,
and I think we were getting ready to discuss --
A. I explained that to you, if you remember
that. That is Canadian funds.
Q. Right. We have already finished --
A. When you break that thing down, it's
about $1,500 less than that in U.S. currency.
Q. Which is about the number you gave me?
MR. CHAPLIN: So you had that confirmed
while you were at lunch?
THE WITNESS: Right.
Q. You did confirm that?
Q. All right. Now we know where the
numbers go. Let's get this one out of the way.
Unless you need these, I am just going to move
them so they don't confuse you.
A. I don't need them.
Q. Tell me about -- I want to talk to you
now about the Butlers. How did you first become
acquainted with them?
A. On the radio.
A. They heard me on the radio.
Q. When did you first speak with them?
A. I don't know dates. I can't give you
Q. Do you know approximately when that
would have been?
A. Well, it was somewhere around '97, '98,
somewhere along in there.
Q. How did you first have contact with
them, by telephone, in person, what?
A. Yes. They started to support us, and
they started to call, and then they wanted to come
for a visit and they came for a visit.
Q. When you talked to them on the
telephone, do you remember any of the
conversations you had with them?
A. Not particular, no. There was nothing
particular about it, except maybe just the
ministry, what I preach and what I talk about.
Q. Do you remember specific comments that
you made to them or they made to you in those
A. Not on the phone, no.
Q. So you-all arranged for them to visit
the community here?
A. They wanted to come for a visit, so we
let them come for a visit.
Q. And that would have been the farm here
in Colleton County?
Q. And do you remember when that was?
A. No, I don't remember the dates. I'm
sorry. I just don't remember dates.
Q. And that's all right. And you
understand I need to ask, because until I ask I
won't know what you do know.
A. I can find approximate dates, but I
don't remember them.
Q. Tell me the circumstances of their
A. When people come for a visit we give
them a place to stay, and they live with us like
we live here. They go out and we start working,
what we do on the farm, and they talk to the other
people and they find out how we live. This is how
we do it. We all work together.
We produce our own food. We grow our
own crops. We very seldom have to go buy anything
because we produce everything. We have our own
ability to farm. We have our own ability to
repair cars. We have our own carpenters. We have
electricians. We are a self-sufficient
And we don't need any money outside. We
have people on that farm that haven't gone off the
farm in 15 years. Don't have to. I don't go off
it. Mag (phonetic) said to me this morning, wow,
we haven't seen you in awhile. I stay on the
A. And they come and they live and they see
what we do, and then they go back. That is the
procedure we have always used.
Q. How long was the Butlers' visit?
A. A week or two. You mean to live?
Q. No, no, when they first came.
A. Oh, about a week. When I let the
Butlers come I broke my rules. I don't mind
Q. What do you mean?
A. Because I let them come with debt. They
were in debt. He owed the IRS $60,000 and he owes
the state of Ohio $30,000, or something in that
area. Because he wouldn't pay -- he was a
patriot. Do you understand what I mean when I say
Q. Someone who claims that they don't have
to pay the government?
A. Pay taxes, right. And that is what he
was, and he didn't pay taxes. He didn't do it.
When he came to me I said, wait a minute, we pay
taxes. We don't do that. We are not going to
play that kind of deal.
So I initiated a contact with the IRS
and with the State of Ohio and we worked out a
settlement plan on how to pay his debt, which was
a great savings, to tell you the truth.
I did the initiating at the suggestion of Mr. Stair. I owed the IRS 42,000 and Ohio 5,000 and we was able to get the IRS reduced to 11,700 I believe.
But when you do that, when you make a
deal with a federal agency like that, if they
agree to a certain amount they will say you have
ten days. That's the reason why he couldn't pay
his debt, because he couldn't come up with that
kind of money, but because he was part of the
community and we took the responsibility, we took
the money and we paid his debt.
And so then whatever he earned, he
contributed just like everybody else did. But we
paid that particular debt because one of our rules
is no debt.
Q. Now, you had some note cards with you a
A. I don't -- oh, I wish I knew -- did I
leave them here? Because I don't know what
happened to them. I thought I left them here.
Q. Well, I was just going to ask you about
these amounts because you said them so quickly.
A. We have the amounts. We have the
amounts. We gave Tim Butler back in cash.
Q. I am going to get to that in a minute.
The amounts that you just were saying a moment ago
about his indebtedness --
A. Yes. I would have to go home and find
out how much we paid.
MR. CHAPLIN: Well, what did you say a
Q. You said something about the State of
Ohio and --
A. He owed the State of Ohio income tax.
He owned the IRS income tax.
Q. Do you know how much?
A. It was around $60,000. I don't know the
Q. All total?
A. The IRS.
MR. CHAPLIN: I thought you said 90.
You said 60 and 30.
A. Yeah. The IRS was around 60 and the
State was about 30, I think it was. I can't be
exact on that because I don't know, but it was in
that bracket, and we paid both of them off.
Q. How much did you pay to pay them off?
A. I think -- like I'm saying, you are
asking me for figures that I can't come up with
MR. CHAPLIN: He said ballpark.
A. I would say about $30,000 for the IRS,
which was reduced from $60,000, and the State
And what I had Tim Butler do -- he was a
truck driver. And you understand when these
people come to live with us, we pay all of their
living expenses. They don't have to buy no food,
no clothes, no gasoline for their cars, none of
The church -- they live with us. Their
life becomes that way, and that is how we do it.
And whether you give much -- did you see that
young man that stood right at that door there?
Did you see him?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. That young man gave $2 million, sir.
He's not asking for it back.
Q. Well, I am just talking about Mr.
A. I am trying to tell you what these
people do, whether you come with nothing or
whether you come with everything. Whatever you
have, you give it, just like me.
For 25 years I have given. What do you
think a man like me would be worth if I was a CEO
in a large corporation? Could I make a $100,000
salary? Patch (phonetic) over here does, why
can't I? But I don't.
We even pay taxes on the farm up there.
As a church we don't have to, but on a certain
part of it I agreed to pay taxes.
MR. CHAPLIN: Let's go back to Butler.
That was --
A. Well, Butler came. And he was a truck
driver, so I kept him driving the truck so we
could get his money. I took his money, put it in
the church's account, and then we took it and paid
Q. I am getting a little off track, because
I was kind of going through this chronologically.
I was talking about their first visit, which I
think you said --
A. The first visit, they worked around on
the farm and then they went home. They went back
Q. During that visit, is that when you
broke your rule and agreed to accept someone with
A. No, no. When he first came I wasn't
sure I wanted to have him come live with me
because he had a bunch of young children,
teenagers, and teenagers are trouble, especially
if you bring them in and they are not used to this
kind of -- and his boy became very much
You see, if you bring a teenage son with
you, he comes because you are coming. He's not
coming because he wants to be there. Can you
Q. Yeah. I understand what you are saying.
A. So when you do that, then after awhile
they don't want to be there and so then they start
causing you trouble.
And at first I said, you have a boy
right here. I said, you are going to bring him
along and he doesn't want to be here. And so he
went back home, and later on he conceded that he
would bring his children and he brought them.
They brought the children. But, like I said, the
boy gave me trouble, gave us trouble.
Q. During this first visit, did you have
conversations with Mr. or Mrs. Butler about the
prospect of them living there?
A. They had let me know that they would
like to move there with us, yes. Anyone that has
ever came on there, after awhile the issue would
And then I say, well, you want to live
here with us? Do you see how we live? Can you
live with us? You know the rules. Whatever comes
here -- everybody, everybody, no matter who it is,
you give what you have. They didn't have to do
it. They could have kept it. But they couldn't
keep it and come here.
Q. Now, are you the person with Overcomer
Ministries that had that conversation with the
A. Yes, sure.
Q. Do you know if other people did?
A. I am sure they talked with the other
people about it.
Q. Did you explain to them about the rules,
that you give everything up?
A. Yes. The rules are written out and the
rules are given to them. They know the rules.
Every person there knows the rules.
Q. Where are the rules written?
A. We even have some papers up there where
they signed. I don't know whether the Butlers
signed theirs or not. But we have some people who
would sign, yes, everything, everything they give.
Q. Now, where the rules are written, what
do you call this document?
A. It's not a document. It's just an
understanding that we have amongst each other.
Q. Is it written?
A. Not necessarily. Right now we have some
places where people have signed some documents.
When this thing started to develop, we come up
with a little document. Now, I would have to go
home and see if the Butlers signed it or not.
Q. When what thing developed?
A. This nonsense with these people asking
for their money back, which you don't ever do with
the church. You give money to a church and you
don't ask for it back. That is something anybody
does. Do you give money to a church?
Q. Since these lawsuits, are you saying
that you developed a document to have people who
live in the community sign?
A. We wrote a little document so these
people understand fully that they agree to this,
that when you come here that we are not obligated
to give your money back. You are getting what you
are giving as an offer, just like when you walk
into your church and you lay down your offering.
That is an offering.
Q. When did you begin having people sign
A. I don't really know that either. I
would have to go back and look at it.
Q. Who drafted that document?
A. Probably one of our brothers. It's just
a little statement that we agree that this is what
we want to do.
Q. Now, I understood -- and maybe I
misunderstood your testimony a moment ago, where I
thought you said the Butlers had read the rules
because they were in writing?
A. No. The Butlers -- nobody reads the
rules. When they come there I tell them, if you
want to live here, this is what we do, this is
what we believe.
Q. That is what I'm trying to drive at. I
want to know what it is --
A. I explained it to you three or four
times already. We don't have nobody come with
debt. You have to be out of debt. We don't have
debt. If you have a debt, you can't come. You
clear out your debt first. That is a rule. We
don't buy anything on credit and we don't go in
debt. Isn't that commendable? I think it is.
Q. I am asking you what you told the
Butlers. Is that --
A. I told the Butlers what I tell
everybody. If you want to live here with us -- if
you live here with us, everything you have you
give to the church, everything. And if there's
anything you need, then we will provide it while
you are here.
And then you work. You work in the
community. Whatever needs to be done here, we do
it and we do it together.
And there are certain things we believe
in in the spiritual realm.
We don't run to doctors. Although, we
do go to doctors if we have to. If they want to
go, they may go, but most of these people don't
want to go.
Most of them come with their own
opinion, this is what they want to do. They want
to believe in God. They want to believe in God
for their healing and for their health and for the
And that is voluntary. If they want to
go -- they can live any way -- you understand that
I have several hundred people outside of the
community that support us? And they don't -- they
go to doctors. They do the things they want to
I don't require them to live like I do,
except if you want to live under our auspices,
this is the way we live here. That is just the
way we do it.
Q. And is that the extent of what you
explained to the Butlers during this first visit?
Q. Was there anything else you talked to
Q. Did you talk to them at all about what
their offering to the church would be used for?
A. Everybody knows what the offering is
used for. I even get on the radio and do that. I
tell them. I spend -- 90 percent of the income
goes for the radio broadcast because that is what
this is all about. This is a ministry that
reaches the world.
My dear friend, while I'm sitting right
here talking to you I could take this phone and I
could talk to the entire world. God has blessed
me. God Almighty, Yahweh, has blessed me to be
able to speak to the entire world, and that is
what I do, and I do it very faithfully.
Q. And did you have any conversation with
the Butlers about the expenditures other than the
90 percent going to radio?
A. No. Why should I? Every bill --
everything up here gets paid. People know where
it goes. We tell the people from time to time
about this, we had to buy that, we do this, we do
that. People know where the money goes.
Q. But the Butlers were visitors. That's
what I'm driving at.
A. No, no. The Butlers -- when they came,
they knew where the money went. They knew.
Q. And how did they know? That is what I'm
trying to figure out.
A. What do you mean how did they know?
Q. Well, someone had to tell them --
A. Tell them what?
Q. -- or they had to get the information
MR. CHAPLIN: Just --
Q. I am simply asking you was there any
conversation with the Butlers during their first
A. Not any more than anybody else, no.
Q. I am not asking to compare. I want to
know specifically what you recall about the
conversation with the Butlers about where the
money they donate, or would donate, would go?
A. No, not any particular. Not more than
anybody else, no.
Q. Well, what would you have done with
anybody else? That is what I'm driving at.
A. What I tell you, is that we tell the
people all the time here is what we buy, here is
what we do, here is where the money goes. The
electric bills are so much. The gasoline bill is
so much. I bought $12,000 worth of honey the
other day. I tell the people where the money
goes, and then I can back it up.
Q. And you explained all of that to the
Butlers in this initial visit?
A. Sir, we have a common --
MR. CHAPLIN: Yes or no.
A. Yes. Yes, I explained it to them. They
Q. Now, I'm not asking what you think they
understood. I am asking you what you told them.
You told the Butlers --
A. I didn't tell them specifically any more
than anybody else, but they did know. They did
Q. I don't mean to sound like I'm arguing
with you, but you have to remember I understand
you have had conversations with a bunch of people
like this, so it's easy for you to compare your
conversations with the Butlers with other people,
but I haven't been privy to any of those
A. What I'm trying to say is we have a
major dining room, a fellowship hall, and we have
a meeting room, and it's in those places where we
discuss everything right out in the open all the
For instance, the other day I went and
bought some honey. And I got back up in the
dining room and I said, today we just spent
$12,000 to buy some honey. I said, now, you-all
be careful how you use it.
Or we bought some gas the other day
because it's cheaper. I can buy it -- and
everybody in the community, you can bring any of
them in here and sit down and they would tell you
they have heard how the money goes, where it goes,
even when it comes in, even when it comes in.
Q. In the initial visit with the Butlers,
did you go through all of the expense items that
would be reflected in Exhibit 1?
A. No, no, no.
Q. Did you go through --
A. No, no, no.
Q. -- all of the categories that would be
reflected by Exhibit 1?
Q. At any point did you go through that
with the Butlers?
Q. Why not?
A. Because it's not required.
Q. For example, when we talked earlier you
explained how some people have child support
obligations that the community will pay?
A. It's understood that when they come
there that all of their responsibilities -- that
every obligation they might have will be taken
Q. Did you explain that to the Butlers?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you explain to the Butlers that
A. I explain it to the general population
MR. CHAPLIN: You have to let him finish
the question, Brother Stair. I know this has you
infuriated, but let's hear the question.
Q. During the Butlers' initial visit, that
one-week approximate visit --
A. Yes, they understood that. I'm pretty
sure they did.
Q. No. I'm not asking what they
understood. I'm asking what you told them.
Q. You told them that you were paying child
support for some people?
A. No. I didn't tell them we were paying
child support for anybody. What did -- that had
nothing to do with their situation.
Q. Did you tell them that you were paying
some people for leaving the community?
Q. Did you tell them that you were spending
money on legal expenses?
Q. Did you have any subsequent
conversations with the Butlers after that one-week
A. Not that I can recall.
Q. How did you know that they had decided
to join the community?
A. They let me know they wanted to come.
A. They just let me know they wanted to
Q. Was that a telephone call or a letter or
A. Either a letter or a phone. I am not
Q. And when was it that you made the
decision to permit them to come despite the tax
obligation that he had?
A. I can't recall.
Q. How did you communicate that to Mr.
A. Might have been by letter, or phone, or
he might have came to see me. I really don't
Q. Did you explain to him, as I think you
characterized it earlier, that you were breaking
one of your own rules to allow him to do that?
A. Yes. He knew that. I told him that.
Q. As best you can recall, exactly what did
you tell him?
A. I told him that I was going to let him
come, and that he was to keep on working, and that
we would take his money and we would clear out
this debt, and that is exactly what we did.
Q. And you told them that was the first
time you had done anything like that?
Q. And I think you indicated you actually
negotiated with the IRS to reduce the lien from 60
to approximately 30?
Q. And did you negotiate with the State of
Q. You said it was approximately $30,000 he
owed the State. How much did you negotiate that
A. I don't really know.
Q. Where in Exhibit 1 would the payments to
the IRS and State of Ohio on behalf of Mr. Butler
A. I don't know that either. You would
probably have to go back and look under Mr.
Butler's name, and then we would find out what he
gave and what we gave back in reference to him.
Q. But it would be an expense payment,
though, that would be reflected somewhere on
Exhibit 1, wouldn't it?
Q. Do you remember approximately when it
was that you paid those two debts?
Q. Do you remember when approximately the
Butlers moved to the community?
A. I could get the date, but I don't
Q. Let's look at these documents that
comprise Exhibit 1. I notice that as of 1998, I
guess as of April of 1998, you begin to reflect
income under the name Tim Butler?
Q. That would be his earnings as a truck
Q. Do you think, then, that 1998 would have
been when you paid his taxes?
A. Yes. That could be the same time.
Q. Now, I'm looking again on the 1998 page
of Exhibit 1, and under the expenses it says Tim
Butler, and I have got several entries which total
$17,719. Do you think that --
A. I am not sure whether that was for the
IRS or what it was. I would have to go back and
verify that. We also bought a motor for him at
that time, I think, that cost quite a bit of
Q. In 1999 there is an expense line for Tim
Butler which totals $1,503. Do you know what that
Q. And in 2000 there is an expense item
totaling $552 for Tim Butler. Do you know what
that was for?
A. It might have been for some tools.
That's how much in tools we bought for him to work
on his truck.
Q. And in the year of 2001 I see a total of
$32,017 paid for Tim Butler. Of that, one amount
was rounded off to $30,000 in August of 2001.
A. That sounds like the IRS situation
Q. Do you believe -- the remaining $2,017
was for what?
A. I really couldn't tell you.
Q. Now, you said something about buying a
motor for Tim Butler. What was that?
A. He wanted a new motor for his truck.
Q. Did he own the truck?
A. Yeah, he owned the truck.
Q. I didn't know whether he had donated
that to --
A. No, he didn't donate the truck. He
would have if I had taken it, but there was no
need for it. It was tagged in his name. It was
titled in his name so he could drive the truck,
and so we just left it that way.
But, like anybody else, the income that
came in from it was donated to the farm, to the
Q. And then the expense for the truck was
paid by the farm?
Q. And that would be the motor, for
A. Right. And we would even give him some
money to make his trips, give him cash money so he
could drive on the road.
Q. Did you pay for the fuel?
A. Yes, indirectly. Like I say, we would
give him some -- he would bring his check home,
and we would let him keep a certain amount of that
for his operating expenses.
What I should have done was take it all
and then make him -- then give it back to him.
That's what I should have done. I goofed on that
Q. Now, this is Exhibit 3, a document that
was produced by your attorneys to me. Do you
recognize that document?
A. Pretty well.
Q. Do you know who prepared that document?
A. That looks like Sister Margaret's work.
Q. Do you know whether it's accurate?
A. As accurate as it could be on the
figures that she has, because she writes down what
the people do.
MR. CHAPLIN: Yes or no.
Q. Tell me what these amounts mean. $2,850
in 1995, is that just a cash contribution or
A. I would say so, yes.
Q. Same for those next three items?
Q. And then there is a line that says
working offerings net of expenses. What does that
A. I don't know. I am sure there are some
expenses that are probably involved in that
Q. Well, those are documented for 1998
through 2001. Would this be the income he
generated as a truck driver that was paid to the
ministry, net of the expenses of his generating
A. Very possible.
Q. Do you know whether the net of expenses
includes the expenses that were incurred to pay
off his debt?
A. No. Those are probably expenses just to
run his vehicle.
Q. Do you know that or are you just
A. That there does not -- those figures
don't match up with the debt that we paid.
Q. Well, wouldn't you need to know how much
income there was in order to know whether it
A. No. It would have made no difference
how much income. It wouldn't have made a bit of
difference how much income. We are determined to
pay the debt, whether he had any income or not.
We would have paid his debt whether he was making
a dime or not.
Q. Well, I understand that. What I'm
saying is if these are net figures --
A. This is probably operating. If there is
any expense in that, it's probably operation of
Q. But do you know that with 100 percent
Q. Who would know that, Margaret?
A. We would have to go back and look in the
book, in the bookkeeping. It would show up in the
Q. Well, this reflects total given of
$67,732. Again, would that be using the net
A. Yes, as far as I can tell.
Q. And it says $30,000 returned 8/2001.
What does that mean?
A. That is the cash money we gave back to
him when he left.
Q. A minute ago when we were looking at
Exhibit Number 1 we got to the year 2001. And
specifically in August of 2001 I asked you about a
$30,000 figure and you said that may have been the
Now that you look at this Exhibit 3, do
you think that was the money you returned to Mr.
A. It could have been. The IRS figure
might have been put in another realm. I would
have to look.
Q. How is it that -- well, let me ask you
this. You have said earlier that you were the one
that made the decision on how much money to return
to anybody if you ever did return money, correct?
Q. So you decided the $30,000, that you
would pay the $30,000?
Q. How is it that you came up with that
A. Well, you see, we calculated -- these
brothers out here calculated that the living out
here is about $15,000 to $20,000, if they were
living out someplace else, providing housing and
everything else for them, it would be about
$20,000 a year.
Q. Who calculated that?
A. Brother -- Mr. Duval, who was a very
economic man. He said, when you live on this
farm -- he said, the way we live, he said, it
would probably cost us $22,000 a year if we lived
A. Yeah, 20 or 22. Oh, come on now.
Q. No. I just didn't hear you. I am
trying to hear what you said.
A. Yeah, 22.
Q. So what did that have to do with the
$30,000 amount for Mr. Butler?
A. I just decided to give Mr. Butler some
money back because he had given quite a bit, and I
decided I wasn't going to let him go out without
Technically, I didn't have to give him
anything. He gave to the church. I don't have to
give money back when people donate to a ministry.
You don't have to do that. That is not required.
Q. Okay. I am just trying to figure out
how you came up with 30,000, and not 25 or not 35
or some other number?
A. No particular reason. Larry Hartley I
gave 70. Another guy I gave $5,000. Another guy
I gave $3,000. I gave them what I felt like I
could -- so they could get out there and get
Q. Is there any other fact that you
considered in determining that $30,000 would be
the appropriate amount to give him?
Q. Is this the only money that you returned
to Mr. Butler, the $30,000?
A. Cash, yes, that's the only money
Q. What else did you give him?
A. He took tools. He took the tools we
bought for him. He took food out of our
warehouse. He backed his truck up and loaded it
up with food. What is the value of that? I have
no way of valuing that.
Can you approximate that value?
A. No. How can I approximate? I mean, I
could guess, but that wouldn't be very well.
Q. Do you know what the value of the tools
A. Yeah. The tools were several hundred
dollars. I'm sure of that. Some of those tools
you bought for that truck cost you four or five
Q. Total value of the tools, do you know
approximately what they were worth?
Q. Did you give him anything else, other
than what you have already told me, when he left?
Q. What were the circumstances of the
Butlers leaving the community?
A. Because I committed that sin, and when I
committed that sin I made the confession. And he
was like some of the others, they thought it was
just terrible that I committed this sin, and it
was. To commit that sin is a terrible sin, but
it's not any more terrible than anybody else's
But I did commit it, and I got up before
the congregation and I confessed it. And I have
been willing to walk circumspectly and more
carefully since that time. And I have not
committed it since then. Thank God for that. I
want to stand before God one day and -- I will be
standing before a judge one day, and that is my
Q. Now, so this was --
A. You know, Tim Butler was not even in the
open meeting. He was not even there when I
confessed it. So you know what happened? When
Tim Butler came home I called the board together,
and I called Tim Butler in and personally sat
there and told him what I had done.
Q. What did you tell him?
A. I told him I committed adultery, just
like I told you.
Q. What was his reaction?
A. Well, he didn't like it.
Q. What did he say?
A. Well, he tried to throw me out of the
ministry. He tried to make me quit the ministry.
He wanted to take over the radio work.
. Q. What did you think of his reaction?
A. I just told him you are wrong. If you
don't like it, that's fine. I don't think it was
right for him -- man, when you are judging a man
for sin, you have to consider your own sin. If
he's without sin, let him cast his stone.
Q. So what was your reaction to his
A. None whatsoever. When he decided he
wanted to leave, just leave. What can I do?
Q. But when he said that you should leave
the ministry --
A. It wasn't his place to say that. We had
other men there. We have men who have been with
me 30, 40 years that are still there. Christopher
was there. There was other men there. And they
accepted my repentance. They accepted my
willingness to submit to their judgment, Yulatool
Q. And when Mr. Butler told you that he
would rather leave the community then --
Q. -- did you say anything else to him at
A. I just told him to leave.
Q. What conversations did you-all have
concerning what he could take with him in terms
A. None whatsoever.
Q. Well, you said he left with food and
A. Yes. He done that without me even
knowing it. I didn't even know it. I just told
him -- I gave him his money. He went and bought a
car. The next thing I know he was taking the
tools out of the garage. He backed up to the
warehouse and took food, and I didn't even notice
that he had done that. He never discussed that
with me. He just done it.
Q. You said you gave him the money. Did
you have any conversation with him about the
A. No. Just gave him the 30,000 and that's
Q. So he told you he was leaving the
community, and then later you just walked up and
handed him a check for $30,000?
A. Yeah. Every person that left, I gave
them some money to leave so that they could go
back out and live. They had -
Q. I understand that. But what I'm trying
to understand is was it a matter of you simply
walked up to him, he didn't say a word, you didn't
say a word, you just handed him a check and --
A. What are you trying to get out of me,
sir, a specific conversation? I don't know what
we said. Here is your money, you leave.
Q. Was there a conversation?
A. No, not particularly, except for one
time he didn't want to leave, and I asked him when
he was going to leave, or what was preventing him
from leaving, and he said, what are you going to
do, call the law on me? I said, no, I'm not going
to do that. But I said, why hang around? Just if
you are going to leave, go ahead and leave and
Q. What my question is, when you gave him
the $30,000 check --
A. There was no conversation.
Q. None at all?
MR. CHAPLIN: I'm going to object to
asked and answered.
MR. UTSEY: Okay, that's fine, but that
is not a proper objection.
MR. CHAPLIN: Why not?
Q. Was there any statement made by Mr.
Butler at that time or any statement made by you,
or you both just sort of stood there and said
nothing and you handed him a check?
MR. CHAPLIN: Again, asked and answered.
A. I don't know what you are asking.
Q. Did you make a statement to Mr. Butler
about the $30,000 check at any point in time?
Q. Did Mr. Butler ever --
A. Not that I know of, no.
Q. Did Mr. Butler ever make any statement
to you about the check?
Q. Did Mr. Butler make any statement to you
at any point in time about how much money he would
like to have when he left?
A. No. He just said I put thirty -- sixty
thousand in this ministry. That's what he said,
because he thinks he does, but he really didn't.
He put it in, but he doesn't count what he got
back for putting it in.
Q. When did this conversation take place?
A. I have no idea.
Q. What else happened in that conversation?
Q. So he simply said that and you didn't
Q. What else did he say?
A. I don't know. I don't know what else.
The decision was made to leave and he left.
Q. And other than him saying he put $60,000
into the ministry --
A. He didn't even say that to me. He
probably -- he said that to somebody else.
Q. Well, who did he say that to?
A. I don't know.
Q. How did you learn of it?
A. People tell me. It comes through the
Q. Who did he tell --
A. I don't know.
Q. So you never had that conversation with
Q. Now, at that time did Mr. Butler still
own his truck?
A. Yes. He always owned his truck.
Q. And he took the truck with him as well?
Q. And he purchased a new car, you said?
A. After I gave him the money, and he got
ready to leave, the next I know he drove in with a
Q. Do you know where he got that from?
Q. Why was Exhibit 3 prepared? Was it for
A. I'm not sure.
Q. Have you ever seen a document like this
other than those --
A. I think when these people started to go,
we went back ourself and started to check exactly
what they did give and what they didn't give. And
that might have even been one of the reasons why I
made a judgment how much to give them back. That
is the only thing I can tell you about that.
Q. So did you have Exhibit 3 prepared
before you gave $30,000 to Mr. Butler?
A. I don't remember that.
Q. Well, you said it may have been a basis
for your judgment. That is what I'm trying to
figure out. How would we be able to determine if
A. It wasn't.
Q. It was not?
A. No. That would have no bearing on what
I gave. I am a man of God, sir, and if God tells
me to do something, I do it. And if God said to
me you give him so much money back, even if he
didn't deserve it, I would have done it.
It's just like I said, we would have
paid that man's debt if he never gave a dime into
the place, just like we've done with others, like
I would do with you or anybody else. If God would
say to me you help that man, I would help you, and
that is a judgment I make.
Q. I am just trying to understand a comment
you made, so I'm not trying to argue with you. So
that we are clear, the $30,000 was not a product
of any of the information that --
A. The $30,000 to Mr. Butler had nothing to
do with him personally or anybody else. Every
person that came to me, I would make a judgment on
what kind of money I was able to give back to
Remember, I am handling God's money. I
am handling church money. So I have to be able to
justify to give it in the spiritual moral sense of
the thing. And, as a church, I am allowed to
benefit people, allowed to help people.
I was just telling somebody out there --
we were talking about a church in Memphis that
went and bought a house and gave it to somebody
from the Katrina situation. They just gave them
the house. They took the church money and they
bought a house and gave it to the people.
See, so that's what -- when these people
got ready to leave us, even though they were
opposing me, I did not send any of them away
empty. I did not give them all their money back
because their money was offerings, but I didn't
want them to go back out with nothing.
Q. Well, did the amounts that you gave
these people --
A. The amount had to do with him because of
the amount he had turned in, yes. It had to do
Q. Was it just generally in reference to
the amount that they had offered, or was it an
equation, you gave them a certain percentage
back? Or tell me how it had something to do with
what they offered.
A. It had nothing to do with what they
offered. I felt certain -- like Larry Hartley or
anyone, I felt like I give them enough money of
what they gave.
Q. Now, hold on a minute, because you just
said that it had something to do with what they
offered. Did it or did it not?
A. It did not.
Q. So the amounts were selected without any
reference to what they offered?
Q. So if you had felt like giving Mr.
Butler $100,000 --
A. If I felt like giving him nothing, I
would have gave him nothing.
Q. Or $100,000?
A. Or $100,000, right.
Q. And there would be no criteria that you
would use to determine that amount?
A. None whatsoever.
Q. Other than what you felt --
A. None whatsoever.
Q. -- was appropriate, right?
MR. CHAPLIN: Do you need a break? Are
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'm all right.
Q. Did Mr. Butler complain to you about the
A. No, not to me. He might have to
somebody else, but he didn't do it to me.
Q. All right. Let's talk about Mr. Duval.
Q. Michael Duval.
A. Oh, okay.
Q. How did you first become acquainted
A. All of these people, every last one of
them, sir, heard me on the radio. I'm a radio
broadcaster. I cover the nation. They heard me
on the radio.
MR. CHAPLIN: But he's talking about
this one specifically, just Duval.
A. Radio, conversation, came and moved
here. Moved here to South Carolina on their own.
Q. Where were they from?
A. New York State.
Q. When did you first have a telephone
conversation with Mr. and Mrs. Duval?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did you talk to them on the telephone?
A. Oh, I'm sure.
Q. Did they come for a visit?
A. They moved here. They moved here and
lived in Walterboro for quite awhile.
Q. You mean not in the community?
A. They moved here without my -- they
didn't ask me. They just moved to Walterboro.
And the next thing I knew they were down here and
they started attending the services.
Q. Was that the first time you met them in
person, when they began attending services?
A. Yes -- no. I might have met them one
time when I went up to that area for a meeting. I
think they told me they came to our meeting in
Syracuse, or something like that.
Q. Do you know approximately when it was
that they moved to the Walterboro area?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Do you know when it was approximately
they began attending services here?
Q. Did you ever have any conversations with
them about moving to the community?
Q. When did those begin?
A. I don't know.
Q. What were the nature of those
A. Same thing with everybody else. You
want to live here, you come out here and work with
us, and you find out whether you can live here
with us under our terms, the way we do things, and
whether we can live with you. It's the same with
Q. Just like what you described with the
(Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 4 was marked
Q. Okay. I am going to hand you now what
has been marked as Exhibit Number 4 and ask you if
you recognize that document.
Q. You do?
A. I recognize some of it.
Q. There are several pages there. It's
just the way it came to me.
Q. What is that document?
A. Just the money they gave and the money
we gave back.
Q. Who prepared that?
A. Either my wife or Margaret. This looks
like Margaret and that looks like maybe --
Q. For the record, the handwritten part
looks like Margaret?
Q. That is a yes?
A. What Margaret would do is we have a
bookkeeper. The bookkeeper keeps a record.
Margaret has each individual.
Q. An individual what?
A. She has a list of people who have
written to us over the years, and she keeps a
record. She can tell how much money they send and
when they send it and what we send back to them.
And that is probably Margaret right there.
4-9-96, she would tell you that is how
much money they gave.
Q. For the record, because we have to read
this later, you are pointing at the second page of
Exhibit 4, which is a handwritten page that you
think is the handwritten record that Margaret
Q. Would the same be true for the next
page, the third page, which is handwritten, also?
A. Yes. I would say so.
Q. And insofar as the first page, which is
typed with some handwriting on it --
A. That might be Margaret, too, making a
summary. I really don't know.
Q. Do you know why this first page was
prepared on June 27, 2001?
A. Yeah, because we started to give them
money back and I wanted to know what we were
giving them back. So I asked her to give me a
record of it, how much did the people give, how
much did we give them back.